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John Wehr





Joined: 25 Apr 2007

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: French/English Knight costume help.         Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for any books, online information or anything that would help with me building a Crécy era knight's outfit. French or English is fine. I'm getting a sword from Angus Trim that is an Oakeshott XIIa so I wanted to go ahead and build a costume out of it as well.

Thank you for any help in advance!


-John
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: French/English Knight costume help.         Reply with quote

John Wehr wrote:
I'm looking for any books, online information or anything that would help with me building a Crécy era knight's outfit. French or English is fine. I'm getting a sword from Angus Trim that is an Oakeshott XIIa so I wanted to go ahead and build a costume out of it as well.


John,

How deep into it do you want to get? And when you say "outfit" are you referring to a harness or civilian clothing?

If you just want a very rough, high-level view of harness you might consider the following books from Osprey Publishing (which can be found all over the web):
The Armies of Crecy and Poitiers by christopher Rothero
Crecy 1346 by David Nicolle
English Medieval knight 1300-1400 by Christopher Gravett (this one's especially good since they've gotten better at historical accuracy lately)
You might also consider Medieval Military Costume by Gerry Embleton (Crowood Press, 2000)

Let me know if you have any questions.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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John Wehr





Joined: 25 Apr 2007

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would say a Harness first. And then the civilian outfit later.

Those books look like that they will be helpful.

I want it to be accurate, but at the same time I don't want to be trudging around in a great deal of weight. Something that perhaps meets in the middle of those?

Thanks Hugh.

-John
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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 790

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I, too, am trying to put together an outfit for roughly this period (or I should say, am very close to doing so thanks to Josh Warren). Transitional armour being what is it, chausses', braise, and an undershirt are going to be required regardless of whether you intend an armoured knight or a civilian interpretation.

The type XIIa is generally considered appropriate for the earlier part of the century. If you want to run with that view (and it will probably require the least explanation, if that is relevant), then maille will feature prominently in your harness. The Fitz Ralph brass may be just a touch over-used but is also very definitive of the period (if a bit decorative).

I think that the Osprey Medieval Knight 1300-1400 book is a very good choice. The color plates should be avoided until you have actually read the book, but they are not too misleading (part of the reason that I recommend the book).

Why, in point of fact, do I recommend this work? Mostly the fact that, unlike other works it does not mix time periods too much. Instead, and this is why I recommend reading versus looking at pictures, it mixes locations. Italy and France; England, and Holland will all be represented on one page (while I do believe that all four of these nationalities are on one page, specifically the plate showing the scale sabatons, I am working from memory (the book, in point of, fact belongs to the previously mentioned and much esteemed Josh Warren), and we all know how fickle memory can be).

I also recommend, and sadly this work is no longer as readily accessible as my grandmother's generosity, David Edges' and John Miles Paddocks' Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight. Again, this work also focuses on chronological rather than topicological distinctions, but it helps one to really understand when and, to a certain extent where, a given armorial idea is fitting.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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John Wehr





Joined: 25 Apr 2007

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jun, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is using Butted maile that bad if you just want to build a beginner costume when it comes to going to Ren Faires? I know, I know, it's a-historical as all get out, but for someone on a rather low budget (blew all the cash on my ATrim) , is it a good stopgap measure before getting into the supremely pricey world of riveted maile?
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John Cooksey




Location: NW Ark
Joined: 15 Nov 2003

Posts: 291

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jun, 2007 9:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John Wehr wrote:
Is using Butted maile that bad if you just want to build a beginner costume when it comes to going to Ren Faires? I know, I know, it's a-historical as all get out, but for someone on a rather low budget (blew all the cash on my ATrim) , is it a good stopgap measure before getting into the supremely pricey world of riveted maile?


Just for looks, why the heck not?
If you just want to go "fixed up" for ren faires, the sky is the limit. And butted maille can be very cheap, and not all that difficult or expensive (but very time-consuming) to make for oneself. Even with butted maille, I would say you would be off to a good start for basic "recreation", as far as image goes.
On the other hand, basic riveted maille is getting much less expensive, due in most part to cheap Indian labor/exports. It may not be completely historically accurate, but it is "pretty accurate".
I would consider either home-made butted or cheap Indian "riveted" to be a great "stop-gap", for purposes of simple historical recreation/image.

I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2007 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would stay away from osprey books on Crécy as a visual reference they suck big time. For armor checkout manuscripts from that time frame and effigies; the Romance of Alexander is dated 1338-1344 just two years before Crécy: http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleia...=msbodl264

Here are options I see:

Full maille suit - Should cover the arms and legs fully and hands if you don't have gauntlets. Flat and round rivet maille are both period at this time

Head - You need a maille coif and either an early open face basinet maybe with a great helm over it or a sugarloaf helm
Body - Coat of plates or just maille, surcotes are seen often. Likely need a pull over padded garment under the maille too; you see them in many images.
Arms - maille sleeves should be long, some sleeves cover to the wrist and some to the forarm and are open with solid or a form of splint armor under them, some images have soupcan elbows and some have rondels with plate pieces.
Hands - Maille mittens or Wisby style guantlets
Legs - full maille chausses; front greaves, full greaves, knee protection, and padded chausses optional



For clothing look at the manuscript and read Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince for details. At this time you would wear a long sleeved tunic under a short sleeved super tunic with either pennant sleeves or tippets. Both tunics would be split in the front and the hem would fall between just above the knee and the calf. Your long-sleeved tunic can have tight fitting button sleeves. Hoods are the fashionable hat of this time; coifs are way out of fashion with the rare exception and the clergy.

Here is a breakdown of clothing and what it should be made of:

Braies - white linen
Shirt - white linen
Hose - wool
Tunic (long-sleeved) - wool (buttons optional)
Super Tunic (short-sleeved) - wool lined in linen and/or fur (pennant sleeves or tippets)
Hood - wool (should have a huge cowl and be a pull over; dagging optional but look at how it was done then the standard Historic Enterprise dagging is later)
Shoes
Belt











James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
Joined: 06 Mar 2007

Posts: 252

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2007 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Barker wrote:
I would stay away from osprey books on Crécy as a visual reference they suck big time. For armor checkout manuscripts from that time frame and effigies; the Romance of Alexander is dated 1338-1344 just two years before Crécy: http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleia...=msbodl264



How come? To me the illustrations seem accurate (although I don't pretend to be an expert...). And AFAIK, Graham Turner is among Osprey's most skilled medieval illustrators. I haven't read Rothero's book though, but I've heard they're pretty inacurrate and outdated
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikael Ranelius wrote:
How come? To me the illustrations seem accurate (although I don't pretend to be an expert...). And AFAIK, Graham Turner is among Osprey's most skilled medieval illustrators. I haven't read Rothero's book though, but I've heard they're pretty inacurrate and outdated



Slight correction; Crecy 1346 by David Nicolle is ok; The Armies of Crecy and Poitiers by christopher Rothero is really bad.

James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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