Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > My Grosse Messer: Soldat from Albion Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Ventura Ancheta





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 10:06 am    Post subject: My Grosse Messer: Soldat from Albion         Reply with quote

Yesterday I posted an introduction and announce that I just received my Soldat Grosse Messer from Albion.

So, I took the Soldat home last night to further examine the sword. Of course the first order of business was the sharpness test. The Albion website said the blade comes sharp... let's see. I picked up a clean sheet of 8.5 x 11 paper and tried to see if the blade would cut the paper just by it's weight. Nothing. I next tried to see if it would cut easily with a slicing motion. Nothing. I then tried to see if it would cut with a sawing motion. It kind of cut. It actually ripped more than it cut. Disappointment was added when at the sawing motion I encountered a slight drag on the paper. Yep, half way on the blade the edge had a very small nick. I mean very small. You wouldn't notice it by just looking at the blade at arms length, but notheless it was there. Okay so last night I figure that I could probably live with it. I mean I've cut with duller blades and the nick was not really noticeable unless you're a nit picky guy like me. But then again, I'm used to high level fit and finish and sharpness on Katana. So maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges.

The rest of the sword was very well made. There was slight rusting on the pommel and the exposed tang on the grip, but that was easy to fix. Some oil and very fine steel wool got rid of the rust. I like the balance and light feel of the blade despite its size. It was also polished very well. It had a nice satin finish. I've done some hand polishing of blades and to me it looks likea 400 grit finish on a wet dry sand paper. It was very nice and very even.

I like the complete package. It's a beautiful sword. Very fine craftsmanship and beautiful geometry. Overall the design is in my opinion perfect. If only it could have been sharper and didn't have the tiny little nick on the edge. Oh well...

So this morning I decided that I didn't want a beautiful, perfect and sharp looking sword to actually be dull and imperfect. I figure that I can "fix" it myself with a little advise from the fine craftsmen at Albion. I called them and nice lady named Amy answered the phone. After I related my "concern" with it not being sharp enough and it having very small nick on the cutting edge she told me that I could ship it back to them and that they would reimburse me the shipping cost. Cool deal, but I don't want the sword the leave my posession. Since I already have it I want to start practicing with it. I asked if I could just fix it myself. In my head I was thinking that it might not be the best idea, but I don't want to let go of the sword I already waited a week for it. I know... some of you have been waiting for your swords for a lot longer.

I can't remember the name of the guy I spoke with. I think it was Erik? Anyway, Amy said he was in charge of production. He was telling me how to sharpen the blade and soon as he heard that there was actually a slight nick on the edge of the blade he recommended that I send it in so they can make it right. I put the blade back in its box untouched and I will ship it tomorrow. I hope I can get a quick turn around. I really do like the blade very much.

Awesome. These guys at Albion stand behind their product. I wouldn't hesitate to order again. They really have excellent customer service and a good products. I like that they take care of their customer and stand behind the quality of their manufacture.

I'll follow up with complete review of the blade after I get it back from Albion. I'm also going to use it for my training in the Filipino martial art of Kali and I'll report on how it handles using the technique from the Filipino martial arts.


Last edited by Ventura Ancheta on Thu 07 Jun, 2007 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,132

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have moved this topic to the Historic Arms Talk forum.

Please note the description for this forum:

"Discussions of reproduction and authentic historical arms and armour from various cultures and time periods"

Thank you.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,170

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Probably best to send it back if you are unsure how best to sharpen and even more if you are not sure you will be happy with the job you could do yourself.

Not knowing what you know about sharpening I don't want to assume that you would do the wrong things like sharpening with power tools. Eek! ( real quick method of ruining a blade unless you have the skill and the right king of equipment ).

For me if the nick was almost microscopic I might gently stone the nick out with a smooth ceramic or diamond hone and them burnish the edge with a hard smooth steel. With the kind of rounded and blended with the main bevel secondary bevel doing this well is tricky.

If the blade is going to be used for cutting often then some resharpening is going to eventually be needed but if one avoids hitting stuff that would cause nicks the amount of sharpening should be very very light.

Now if you use the sword for years of cutting you will eventually change the blade profile and lose the original edge and may create an obvious secondary bevel.

Oh, a sword need not be razer sharp to be effective but I personally like it to be paper cutting sharp, but sword sharp can be duller than this and still be perfectly fine.

You could have a look at this Topic for more discussions about sharpness. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1980

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I want one of these swords, perhaps more than any in the current Albion line-up. Congrats to you for your recent acquisition! I'm quite envious. I'd be quite happy with your example and its current edge should you wish to ship it to California. Razz

I don't cut paper with swords. I use scissors. I ideally want my swords to be able to do the jobs for which they were intended for the period that they existed and with the same success and limitations imposed on them as their antique inspiration. Generally speaking, this means that the swords that interest me are not razor sharp, symmetrically perfect, or ideally finished. The reproductions of said swords are leaps and bounds beyond that which inspire them; and that's good enough for me. Happy

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Paul Watson




Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand
Joined: 08 Feb 2006

Posts: 391

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 10:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ventura, congratulations on your sword and I hope it comes back to your satisfaction. Albion really do have the best customer service.

As an aside, it should be noted that the sword would have been sharpened to the correct historical requirements for a sword of that type. Paper sharp is too sharp for many types of swords. I won't go to far into this because there are many people here who can advise you on this in a much more complete and knowledgeable fashion than I ever could.

But I will say I have two swords from Albion. One which I can comfortably run my finger down the edge of (Regent)and another which I would not dare try to do that (Knight). Although the Knight cuts targets easier this is what it was historically orientated towards. The Regent however is still cuts very well. It should be noted that the Regent has had much more use and been subjected to a polishing process by myself which has contributed to some dulling and is due a few strokes of a sharpening stone to renew the very edge sharpness but as Peter Johnsson once said, there is sharp and then there is sharp enough by which he meant a sword may not be sharp enough to cut some mediums (eg paper) but it is still sharp enough to do it's intended job.

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
View user's profile Send private message
Ventura Ancheta





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This sword is definitely "sharp enough". I've cut bamboo with a dull like a spoon katana. I don't think it'll be a problem cutting with this sword. I just expected it to be sharper or as sharp as my other katana. When I contacted Albion and asked them how sharp is their definition of sharp I was told that it should slice paper easily. This sword did not do that "easily". Like I said I had to do more like a sawing motion for the sword to cut paper. Slicing easily to me means that the sword should cut with a firm slow stroke.

I really think I can get rid of the nick myself, but why risk it especially when the folks at Albion will do a much better job. Besides, I don't want to mess up the shape of the blade just because of a little nick.

Regardless, I really like this sword and I want to play with it now. It just sucks that I have to send it back and wait a little longer to put it to its paces.
View user's profile Send private message
Gabriel Lebec
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: NY, NY
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Reading list: 32 books

Posts: 419

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Personally I don't think that paper slicing tests are really indicative of anything relevant to a sword's purpose or relative level of quality from a performance standpoint. For example, a thinner blade cross-section will slice paper more easily than a thicker cross-section, but for swords of certain types such a thin cross-section would be inappropriate and even dangerous (for the user).

This goes for nihonto just as much as for a variety of western weapons; in the JSA world, or at least that subset of practitioners involved in tameshigiri (test cutting), the modern trend has been towards thinner blades than used in antiquity just because they slice through tatami more easily. That doesn't mean that they'd stand up to the kind of combat use they were intended for, especially against armored targets. This isn't a rule, both in terms of shinsakuto (which show more variety than in any point of Japanese sword history) and in terms of antiques (which vary strongly over time and between schools), but it's definitely a trend as far as contemporary martial artists and their tools go.

Anyway, regarding the paper slice test, it's certainly neat and nice when a blade is able to shave paper but personally I would never be disappointed by a blade that failed to do so. It doesn't fit in as a judgment factor for me; I define appropriate sharpness by other criteria, depending on the type of weapon and intended use. Of course, in your specific case, if Albion states that the blade should have this ability (and if there's an appreciable nick), then that's something else.

Congrats on your new sword though; I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Grayson C.




Location: NCF, Sarasota, FL
Joined: 25 Oct 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 223

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Ventura, gratz on your new sword and sorry to hear about the small problems. I thought it would be worth chiming in here to point out that you shouldn't be comparing your Soldat to a katana. Doing so is like comparing apples to oranges, they may be foods (and even mroe specific - their both fruits!) but they are quite different. Just because the soldat isn't sharp enough to shave with doesn't mean it has a bad edge. one would never want their sword to be so sharp; it leads to many problems inluding rabid dulling and weaking of the blade to the point of easily chipping it. And we don't want MORE nicks do we Wink ? Anyways, a katana is an entirely different beast meant for entirely different motions in an entirely different setting of combat. The only similarity to a european sword would be the fact that they are both swords...
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you own a sharp Albion, it does not necessarily mean that you will be able to cut well with it. A lot of one's capacity to cut with a sword depends upon your skill, rather than the sword's sharpness. There are lots of people out there who can't cut with a sword. It's not as simple as "make a cutting motion at your target" and it will cause damage. I can't necessarily make effective cuts as often as I'd like with my swords; it all comes down to practice.
View user's profile Send private message
Ventura Ancheta





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm just used having very tough and sharp blades.

Are you guys saying that I shouldn't even worry about the sharpness of the blade or the nick? I'm not really worried about the sharpness. Like I said it's sharp enough. What about the nick? I can't see it arms length. How would removing that change the shape of the blade?

If I don't have to do anything I prefer to keep it and just start playing with it. Doing the forms with it is just awesome.
View user's profile Send private message
Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 790

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 5:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It sounds, at lest based on your account, like you handled the situation decently and didn't start throwing accusations around. That being the case, I would say that, since the sword wasn't what you expected, and since Albion is willing to fix the nick, etc. that there is nothing wrong with having them do the repairs. You will probably be happier in the end, rather than not sending it and repeatedly wondering if you should have.

The advice I would offer is that you not abuse Albion's customer service. The case you have presented is perfectly reasonable, but there have been cases where people expected Albion to make repairs free of charge for things that were simply misuse on the part of the customer.

I have to admit that I am jealous; I've only called Albion a couple of times, but I have not gotten to speak to Amy.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
View user's profile Send private message
Travis Canaday




Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Joined: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 7:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriel Lebec wrote:
This goes for nihonto just as much as for a variety of western weapons; in the JSA world, or at least that subset of practitioners involved in tameshigiri (test cutting), the modern trend has been towards thinner blades than used in antiquity just because they slice through tatami more easily. That doesn't mean that they'd stand up to the kind of combat use they were intended for, especially against armored targets.



This is a great point. It makes me cringe when people suggest testing the superiority of a sword by how well it cuts tatami mats. The purpose of the exercise is to test the swordsman, not the sword. If one wants the best tatami cutting implement around… get a machete.

Travis
View user's profile Send private message
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 12:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The edge sounds fine, though I do wonder how it got nicked in the first place. What makes me wonder more is the rust -- I'm sure Albion has a very great record of shipping well oiled products -- I guess something happened on this one?


Also, as for machette, I'm considering finding a way to turn mine into some form of modern falchion, similar to "The Vassal" without the top edge bit.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Amy Christensen-Waddell
Industry Professional



Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: My bad... :-(         Reply with quote

I just wanted to add a quick note, since I am at fault here for something. Ventura (what a great name) says:

"When I contacted Albion and asked them how sharp is their definition of sharp I was told that it should slice paper easily. This sword did not do that "easily".

That was me - I said that. I have since been corrected by both Howy and Eric, as we had a brief "sharpness" discussion this morning. You see, I've been away from Customer Service for a long, long... *long* time now. I can't even name every sword Albion makes anymore. I now deal with bankers, investors, consultants, lawyers and accountants - and few of my interactions involve detailed production information. On top of that, things have been changing at a light-year-pace in production since I was heavily involved, so I'm not always as up to date on things as are others here. So my apologies...

What I intended to say was that whenever I've gone down to the production area and I see the guys testing swords, they're slicing paper with blades, but they're also admittedly hacking into a steel barrel. I did not realize that the paper cut is used for some blades - based on blade and edge geometry - while others aren't put to paper at all.

My bad.

I apologize for any confusion I may have caused. One thing I do know for certain is that we always want Albion sword owners to be happy with their babies, so we'll fix up that Soldat and get it back into Ventura's hands. :-)

My best to everyone,
Amy

Amy Waddell
President/CEO
Albion Swords Limited, LLC

I wrote to the FBI to see if they had a file on me. They wrote back, "we do now..."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Ventura Ancheta





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, Amy I had no idea I was speaking to the President and CEO of Albion Swords. I received the best and most pleasant customer service. You're awesome.

I think this speaks volumes for Albion's commitment to quality. Thank you Amy.

The Soldat is on its way back. I hope I didn't cause too much trouble. I can't wait to get it back in my hands. It really is a very beautiful sword.
View user's profile Send private message
Amy Christensen-Waddell
Industry Professional



Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No worries Ventura - we'll get it back to you as soon as we can. I'm hoping that the post-it is still stuck to the box when it gets here. Happy If we have any questions, we'll give you a call.

Have a great weekend!
Amy

Amy Waddell
President/CEO
Albion Swords Limited, LLC

I wrote to the FBI to see if they had a file on me. They wrote back, "we do now..."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Amy Christensen-Waddell
Industry Professional



Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greyson Brown wrote:
I have to admit that I am jealous; I've only called Albion a couple of times, but I have not gotten to speak to Amy.

-Grey


Jeepers Greyson, I think I'm blushing. Yes... yes indeed I believe I am. We need an emoticon for that. Happy

Amy Waddell
President/CEO
Albion Swords Limited, LLC

I wrote to the FBI to see if they had a file on me. They wrote back, "we do now..."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 790

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Amy Christensen-Waddell wrote:
Greyson Brown wrote:
I have to admit that I am jealous; I've only called Albion a couple of times, but I have not gotten to speak to Amy.

-Grey


Jeepers Greyson, I think I'm blushing. Yes... yes indeed I believe I am. We need an emoticon for that. Happy


Technically speaking, we do. It's this one: Blush Of course, I'm not sure how one is supposed to tell...

I still owe Mike and Aaron each a drink, so I have to come up to New Glarus at some point. Hopefully that will make up for not talking to you on the phone.

-Grey

EDIT: Unfortunately, that last part just seems a bit creepy; it really wasn't intended that way.

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
View user's profile Send private message
Kenton Spaulding




Location: Connecticut
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greyson, you had better hope Howie is not reading this thread! Ha, just kidding with you man, I think I know what you were saying.

Ventura, I'm glad you like your choice of sword, and I hope it finds it's way back to you soon. I've always been a bit curious as to how secure these type of swords feel in hand. Now of course I realize that if these types of designs were not secure than professional soldiers would not have risked their lives in using them. Still, I'm a bit curious though. Do you find that the you need a bit firmer grip on a sword with a small pommel like this? Does the shape of the pommel kind of lock your hand on the grip, or what? It would just look to me as though they might require a bit more training and technique in use, although I could be totally off base. It wouldn't be the first time.

Kenton
View user's profile Send private message
Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 112 books

Posts: 1,019

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ventura, Congratulations on a beautiful sword! Both of my Albions swords I bought at a vendor and they were very sharp, but being that I live close to the vendor, I got to see, hold and feel the swords prior to purchase.
My first and a whole lot of my swords are from Arms & Armor, what I did on my very first order when I placed it, I stated a few times in the conversation. "Please make sure that my sword is very sharp, as though ready to go into real live combat of the day.
I sure got one sharp German Bastard Sword Exclamation
Being that I am somewhat neurotic Laughing Out Loud I did not leave things to any policy, nor was I sure of their policy on sharpness, and then again, people are human and humans make mistakes from time to time. Nobody is perfect, so I was compelled by my own neurosis to make this request on each and every order.

I just thought that maybe this idea might help others.

Bob
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > My Grosse Messer: Soldat from Albion
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum