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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject: Bastard Sword from MRL         Reply with quote

Many years ago I purchased from an old friend a so called Bastard sword that looks like a Type XVII handel but with a 32" double fuller blade.
The picture of it was in an old MRL catalog and said to have Krupp 55 steel. Del Tin may have made this piece when MRL was selling them.
It's shown with a steel pommel and cross guard. Mine looks the same except it has a bronze pommel and cross guard.

My question: Can this be a Del Tin and can this be classified as a Type XVII or Type XX? It has a small ricasso and a broad blade of about 2" or less.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun, 2007 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What's the blade's cross-section? How much taper is there is blade width? If the blade is hex-sectioned and tapers to a really nice point, then it might be a XVII, even though the double fuller would make it unusual.

Any chance you can post some pics?

Is it similar to this but with a scent stopper pommel? http://deltin.it/5156.htm

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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's not tapered to a fine point, but I did some filing to take a nick out of the tip long ago.
I'll make some pics and get them here ASAP.
I thought for sure someone would remember this piece. It's the only one I have ever seen with Bronze pommel and cross guards. Don't think it came through MRL as it's understood history predates that.
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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Is it similar to this but with a scent stopper pommel? http://deltin.it/5156.htm


That's it except for the pommel. It is a "scent stopper pommel" but very ornate.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I bought a version of that sword from MRL in 1999. It was definitely a Windlass sword and was a combination of DT5156 blade and guard, and DT2160 pommel and grip - http://www.deltin.net/2160.htm -

I really liked the look of that sword though it weighed more than 4 lbs, and quickly got a case of loose-hilt-itis. The furniture on mine was steel, not bronze, so yours may have been an earlier Del Tin version.

As for the sword type, I think the blade is too wide with too little profile taper for it to be a XVII. The double fuller doesn't really match the type XX fuller pattern. I consider it to be a late type XIIIa - there was a revival of this type in the late 15th and early 16th century. Also, double fullers were not uncommon in XIII's.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun, 2007 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think I know the sword you're talking about, I just am having trouble finding the old model number and pictures. It's been redesigned a bit. The older 5156 had a wider shorter blade and wide less raised pommel. There was another sword exactly the same but with a grooved scent stopper pommel.

It's not a Type XVII, though.

Like this one, but with a scent-stopper right?

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/5655.html

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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun, 2007 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Correct.
I'll try and get a picture done tonight.
I didn't know if it was a Del Tin because of it saying Krupp 55. As anyone knows, Krupp is a german steel factory and made the German war machines. Krupp goes way back over 400 years. During WWII, Krupp produced submarines, tanks, artillery, naval guns, armor plate, munitions and other armaments for the German army.
Hitler would say: "In our eyes, the German boy of the future must be slim and slender, as fast as a greyhound, tough as leather and hard as Krupp steel."

I didn't know if Del Tin used Krupp made steel in his productions or not. The piece is different in so much that it came to me in an odd way.

I'll get the pictures. Big Grin
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Del Tin used Krupp steel in the 90s back when MRL dealt them
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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Del Tin 5156?
OK, going over my records and getting all the information I can, I bought this piece back in late1989 and received it from a dealer who got it from someone in financial need.
The handle was redone but that is all. All of the MRL photos I have show this piece with all steel hardware and a bit shorter blade. ( MRL catalog #36 page 43)
I have made no other changes to it other than file a nick out of the tip when I first got it.

The dimensions are almost the same as the DT5156 ( http://deltin.it/5156.htm ) . I believe this piece may have been before MRL started to get them from Del Tin and it could possibly be a prototype? (I could be wrong) It's looked old when I first got it and had a few corrosion marks on it.
Trying to clean it, I found that sanding the blade at the ricasso was fairly easy but about midway down and onward to the tip was extreamly hard. I could ask Fulvio Del Tin if he recognize it and when it was made? Or you guys may know him better and can ask.

My tape on the this is:
Overall length= 44"
Blade = 34"X 1 3/4" (after the file down on the tip)
quillons = 9 1/2 " across
Handle = 7" (not including the pommel or quillons)

Hope this helps in identifying this very nice sword.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 7:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It could be a prototype. If it's a Krupp steel blade, it's almost certainly a Del Tin blade, as they used Krupp steel for years. Did any other makers use that steel? My understanding is that MRL dealt Del Tin (perhaps from the very beginning) and items made by Chris Poor (and Craig?) and the company that would become A&A.

The pommel looks similar to A&As Schloss Erbach pommel, in fact:



It could be an MRL-hilted DT blade. I really have no idea as it looks different from the older 5156s I've seen. On those, the flutes on the pommel are not spiral.

Question Question

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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I met Chris Poor once at a Fair here in Texas. All of his creations had all steel hardware and he indicated he wasn't into casting. I loved watching him work, very quick and precise.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gary A. Chelette wrote:
I met Chris Poor once at a Fair here in Texas. All of his creations had all steel hardware and he indicated he wasn't into casting. I loved watching him work, very quick and precise.


Arms & Armor (A&A), which Chris founded (See here), casts most (if not all) of their hilt furniture. While they cast most of their stuff in mild steel now, they used to cast much more in bronze. I believe it used to be an option on many of their swords to get the hilt cast in steel or bronze.

See these items from my collection gallery:

http://www.myArmoury.com/chad_swor_aa_hen.html?1
http://www.myArmoury.com/chad_dagg_aa_cdag.html?1

The dagger above has been changed from that form to this one:



The reenactors at the Frazier Museum use smallswords with hilts cast by Chris Poor.

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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I stand corrected.
He had a forge at the faire doing work for customers and pieces he sold there at the Faire.
I may have misunderstood him and he may have been telling me not here at the Faire. I was asking him about a custom hilt for a dagger I was trying to put together. I still have the blade and never have done anything with.
There has been a couple of people at that site doing forged stuff, but none lasted over 2 years that I know of. High rent and low returns I suspect.
This was many years ago.
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J. Pav




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been wondering how this blade wouild be classified as well.

They sold off the last of these blades through Atlanta Cutlery, so I picked one up for a mounting project.
I've deemed it a "Crusader Proto-Longsword". I went pretty basic, since I couldn't find any historical counterparts to this blade style, so I can't pinpoint any possible time in history where it would work. If that's even possible.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/TheyCal...0018-2.jpg

It's not a bad blade for the price I paid. No taper of ANY kind, which confuses me. I don't think I've seen any arming/bastard sword without any profile taper(distal taper I can ignore, considering the price-range of the item).
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If it has a more or less hexagonal section and little to no profile taper, it could be a Type XIX.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have both the post DT plagerizing MRL version, and DT5156, and, after looking at them, I still say late version of XIIIa
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 11 May, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Forgive me for resurrecting this old thread - I'm including a photo of the MRL version that I bought in 1999. Windlass has fairly recently brought back this model - it looks pretty much the same as it did back then.

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...tard+Sword



 Attachment: 93.82 KB
MRL Bastard3s.jpg
Old Windlass

 Attachment: 95.75 KB
mrl bastard5s.jpg
Old Windlass
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