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Sean Scott





Joined: 02 Apr 2007

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Saber knot for US M1913-pattern sabers         Reply with quote

I own two RIA-manufactured saber knots of the type usually associated with the M1913 sabers. One knot is undated but with the mark of an inspector (Emil Schmitten) who only worked between ~1903-1905. So, obviously, this pattern of knot considerably predates the M1913 saber.

I'm coming up with zip on internet searches, there doesn't seem to be much online info about US Army saber knots.

Anyone know what the correct nomenclature of this knot is?



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M1913_saberknot.jpg


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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 29 May, 2007 7:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean;

You might want to ask the fellows over at the Society of the Military Horse ( http://www.militaryhorse.org/ ) about this. They are very focused on the late-19th and early-20th Century aspects of Cavalry and associated weapons and accoutrements, and if anyone has info on this sword knot, they would. They may well have already discussed it in depth, in fact, so check their archives first.

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Sean Scott





Joined: 02 Apr 2007

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I thought of that, but I'm not a member of the boards and their registration has been down for a couple of weeks.

If there is a member of their forums here who can post a link to this thread, I'd be much obliged...

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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

Some good notes about the Patton system I have read indicate the M1913 was never designed to be used with a sword knot, hence them turning up shown with the older knots. I guess tradition was dying hard. A thread at the forum mentioned does pop up on a Google search for m1913 Patton knot and they seem to be refering to an 85/06 knot (intresting thread because discussion of the steel officer's scabbards and carriers is touched on). That forum is also searchable and I have visited there for Patton tidbits before.

The troopers knot you show is virtually unchanged from the mid 19th century on. I guess it was a case of "if it ain't broke"

Cheers

GC
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Sean Scott





Joined: 02 Apr 2007

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, Glen!

I may be wrong, but I think the M1913 *was* meant to be used with a saber knot. Ordnance Memoranda No. 1715 - Description and Directions for Use and Care of Cavalry Equipment, Model of 1912 , dated 5 October 1914 and printed in 1916, describes and illustrates the M1913 saber and all of its accoutrements, including the saber knot of the pattern in my first post:

Quote:
The Saber Knot.
The saber knot consists of two 1/2-inch body straps, 13 1/2 inches long, on which are two movable slides. At. one end a 3 5/8-inch button loop is attached by means of a button, and at the other end is secured a blind tassel body composed of a compact roll of leather about 2 3/4 inches long by 5/8 inch in diameter.


That rolled-leather tassel body is the difference from earlier knots. The next earliest description I can find of a saber knot is from Ordnance Memoranda No. 29: Horse Equipment and Cavalry Accoutrements, dated 1885. The knot described and illustrated there has a quite different tassel configuration, being braided instead of rolled.

Quote:
Tassel 0 of light collar leather, slit and rolled up to 3/4 inch diameter; wrapped with waxed thread to the width of 11/16 inch from top for braiding over. The loop is then sewed on, after which it is again wrapped with waxed thread to inch diameter.


So, this pattern of saber knot falls somewhere in that 1885-1912 gap. Well, actually 1885-1904. RIA has a 1904-dated example of the "newer" knot.

The dearth of information on sword and saber knots is very frustrating.

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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,815

PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

I revisited the page I had found the "no knots" notes on and stumbled on another page of theirs listing some very interesting cavalry publications. Of note to this discussion is item 287.

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/Documents.htm

It was in their knife knotes section that I had read the comment about no knots. That page and section has a picture of the scabbard carriers, I'll dig up the specific page again. Edit, yup I was misrembering what I had read. It was this page (way down under A Real Long Scabbard) It reads "not commonly seen"
http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/knife_knotes_10.htm
Funny what memory does, over time.

Some time ago, I had also come across another information page that showed the whole troopers kit laid out for inspection. That and other stuff is over on one of the Patton threads at the A&M room of SFI.

One puzzle I'm still trying to dig some on is an M1913 sword at a dealer. The scabbard is stenciled to a CAT Airborne Infantry Lt named Morehouse. It's over at www.collectorsfirearms.com

Something tells me there is a story there but it may just be it was stenciled to be held in the armoury for him.

Cheers

GC


Last edited by Glen A Cleeton on Wed 30 May, 2007 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Scott





Joined: 02 Apr 2007

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just ordered a book from Mr. Trzaska, and missed #287. It sounds like it might have exactly the info I'm after! I've sent an email, perhaps I can get it included in my pending shipment. Thanks, Glen!

[ETA: I saw Morehouse and Airborne, and immediately thought of MAJ David Morehouse of Stargate infamy...an unlikely but interesting coincidence!]

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