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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2007 10:38 pm    Post subject: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Has anyone seen the Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna in person? I'd like to read some hands-on impressions from anyone who's seen or handled the real deal.

Thanks!




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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2007 11:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Has anyone seen the Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna in person? I'd like to read some hands-on impressions from anyone who's seen or handled the real deal.

Thanks!


Hi Nathan, Yes we did and Mr. Johannes, Würkner and Rottler made an excat reproduction of it. The pictures you show do not show the gilding on the pommel and handguard clearly. There are some books which show that gilding very clear. The litographs of the sword from 18 century show that that the gilding was still strong. Nowadays for strange strange reasons the gilding is very very light, but at some place you can see it very strong.

Oakshott thought that the handguard and teh quillons were made of iron. They are not made of iron but silver. We had a test made by the curator of museum. They are silver.

This is pointed and stressed in a very academic book written solely on this sword by Ms. Schulze-Dörrlamm

You can buy this marvellous book (with pictures and dimensions). I really recommend it to anyone. That is an excellent book in German:

http://www.abebooks.de/servlet/BookDetailsPL?...sortby%3D3

We still ordered other closeups and pics of the blade (they take pics themselves) and there one can clearly see the gilding. I wrote an article on the reproduction of this sword. You can see both sides of the pommel and handguard on it

http://persianmirror.com/Article_det.cfm?id=1...ategory=32

http://persianmirror.com/Article_det.cfm?id=1...ategory=32

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Manouchehr M. wrote:

Oakshott thought that the handguard and teh quillons were made of iron. They are not made of iron but silver. We had a test made by the curator of museum. They are silver.


Wow! That's another fascinating insight. Conventional wisdom as far as I know to this point has been that the sword was a dressed up fighting weapon. I would assume that a pure silver hilt would be far too soft for a fighting weapon although I suppose that one could still say it was a functional blade with a fancy hilt. Do you know for sure that the hilt was solid silver or is it silver plate of some sort? Silver plate would add to the dressed up fighting weapon idea...

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:

Wow! That's another fascinating insight. Conventional wisdom as far as I know to this point has been that the sword was a dressed up fighting weapon. I would assume that a pure silver hilt would be far too soft for a fighting weapon although I suppose that one could still say it was a functional blade with a fancy hilt. Do you know for sure that the hilt was solid silver or is it silver plate of some sort? Silver plate would add to the dressed up fighting weapon idea...


There are basket hilts made of solid silver whose blades seem to have seen quite a bit of use. There are other warswords with crosses of copper, latten, etc. that seem to have seen hard use, too. I don't know if we can totally discount battlefield use just because of the silver.

Happy

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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Manouchehr M. wrote:

Oakshott thought that the handguard and teh quillons were made of iron. They are not made of iron but silver. We had a test made by the curator of museum. They are silver.


Wow! That's another fascinating insight. Conventional wisdom as far as I know to this point has been that the sword was a dressed up fighting weapon. I would assume that a pure silver hilt would be far too soft for a fighting weapon although I suppose that one could still say it was a functional blade with a fancy hilt. Do you know for sure that the hilt was solid silver or is it silver plate of some sort? Silver plate would add to the dressed up fighting weapon idea...


Hi Russ

The quillons and the pommel are made of solid silver. Solid one. Theya re gilded so that whne you see it closely you see the golden color. As I mentioned above in some parts the gilding is worn off and one sees the silver clearly. For some strange reans the gilding looks very weak now but it was not the case in old pictures drawn of the sword. The Reichsschwert next to the Zeremonienschwert both used to look really yellowish (I mean the quillons and the pommel). See this link please for the old painting:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsschwert

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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Manouchehr M.





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Russ Ellis wrote:

Wow! That's another fascinating insight. Conventional wisdom as far as I know to this point has been that the sword was a dressed up fighting weapon. I would assume that a pure silver hilt would be far too soft for a fighting weapon although I suppose that one could still say it was a functional blade with a fancy hilt. Do you know for sure that the hilt was solid silver or is it silver plate of some sort? Silver plate would add to the dressed up fighting weapon idea...


There are basket hilts made of solid silver whose blades seem to have seen quite a bit of use. There are other warswords with crosses of copper, latten, etc. that seem to have seen hard use, too. I don't know if we can totally discount battlefield use just because of the silver.


Chad,

Indeed the blade is a fully functional blade. This is the same with oujer Coronation swords like Zeremonienschwert that is kept in the Kunsthistorisches Museum Vienna and the Charlemagne sword in the Louvre. I am fascinated by all these three coronation swords. All have functional swords.

You will be happy to hear that we isnpected the Zeremonienschwert as well and have all the related dimensions and also pictures. The pommel is made of solid silver and is gilded. Now the interesting part is that the quillon is made of olive wood and covered with gold plates that are chased, enamelled and partially decorated with filigree. An amazing work. Still the blade is a very solid funcational blade. All three have solid, well-balanced blades.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Manouchehr M. wrote:

Oakshott thought that the handguard and teh quillons were made of iron. They are not made of iron but silver. We had a test made by the curator of museum. They are silver.


Wow! That's another fascinating insight. Conventional wisdom as far as I know to this point has been that the sword was a dressed up fighting weapon. I would assume that a pure silver hilt would be far too soft for a fighting weapon although I suppose that one could still say it was a functional blade with a fancy hilt. Do you know for sure that the hilt was solid silver or is it silver plate of some sort? Silver plate would add to the dressed up fighting weapon idea...


Russ

I use lots of information from Dr. Schulze-Dörrlamm in my article. She has done an excellent research on this sword. THe idea that it was a dressed up weapon is not correct. The sword was made for coronation and still it has a functional blade as all other important coronation swords.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Manouchehr M. wrote:

Russ

I use lots of information from Dr. Schulze-Dörrlamm in my article. She has done an excellent research on this sword. THe idea that it was a dressed up weapon is not correct. The sword was made for coronation and still it has a functional blade as all other important coronation swords.

Kind regards

Manouchehr


Interesting, I believe that the idea of a dressed up sword came from Oakeshott, though I will need to look at my books to verify that. If he was incorrect about the construction of the cross perhaps he was wrong about other aspects of the sword as well.

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

There are basket hilts made of solid silver whose blades seem to have seen quite a bit of use. There are other warswords with crosses of copper, latten, etc. that seem to have seen hard use, too. I don't know if we can totally discount battlefield use just because of the silver.


Interesting, I think personally I would prefer something a little more robust then an all silver or latten cross for a combat weapon, perhaps those materials are adequate for that purpose, but for some reason I just don't think I would have the confidence in them that I would have in iron or mild steel.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Manouchehr M. wrote:

Russ

I use lots of information from Dr. Schulze-Dörrlamm in my article. She has done an excellent research on this sword. THe idea that it was a dressed up weapon is not correct. The sword was made for coronation and still it has a functional blade as all other important coronation swords.

Kind regards

Manouchehr


Interesting, I believe that the idea of a dressed up sword came from Oakeshott, though I will need to look at my books to verify that. If he was incorrect about the construction of the cross perhaps he was wrong about other aspects of the sword as well.


Russ

Dr. Schulze-Dörrlamm did a very good job in analyzing this sword. In her book she gives a detailed analysis of this sword. Note that this is ana acdemic book with cross references and footnotes. She also analyzes the sword belt and the scabbard in detail.

Neverthless we analyzed the sword and also the curator did an extra test that confirmed the statement by Dr. Schulze-Dörrlamm that the quillon and the pommel are made of silver. Mr. Oakshott did an excellent job and research, but I am afraid that the pommel and handguard are definitely not made of iron.

This sword is a cornoation sword and lots of articles are written on it in German. I would really suggest buying the book by Dr. Schulze-Dörrlamm. The price is really low and it is an excellent investment in my opinion. I mention again that the book is written in German.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Chad Arnow wrote:

There are basket hilts made of solid silver whose blades seem to have seen quite a bit of use. There are other warswords with crosses of copper, latten, etc. that seem to have seen hard use, too. I don't know if we can totally discount battlefield use just because of the silver.


Interesting, I think personally I would prefer something a little more robust then an all silver or latten cross for a combat weapon, perhaps those materials are adequate for that purpose, but for some reason I just don't think I would have the confidence in them that I would have in iron or mild steel.


All three cornoation swords that I mentioned above were meant for conorations, and not fighting. However, the blades are functional blades and could have been used easily ina fight. Whether the quillons woul hold up, I doubt. But I think silver and gold would hold a bit. Of course, they are no substitute for iron or steel, but then again they were meant for coronation. This makes them even more interesting in my opinion.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow. Happy That is am amazing sword.

Now i'm looking forward to going to Vienna even more. ( Booked the tickets and hostel last week Happy ).
I'll probably read the book by Schulze-Dörlamm before I go.

Thanks a lot for the great information, Manouchehr.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Manouchehr M. wrote:

Russ

Dr. Schulze-Dörrlamm did a very good job in analyzing this sword. In her book she gives a detailed analysis of this sword. Note that this is ana acdemic book with cross references and footnotes. She also analyzes the sword belt and the scabbard in detail.

Neverthless we analyzed the sword and also the curator did an extra test that confirmed the statement by Dr. Schulze-Dörrlamm that the quillon and the pommel are made of silver. Mr. Oakshott did an excellent job and research, but I am afraid that the pommel and handguard are definitely not made of iron.

This sword is a cornoation sword and lots of articles are written on it in German. I would really suggest buying the book by Dr. Schulze-Dörrlamm. The price is really low and it is an excellent investment in my opinion. I mention again that the book is written in German.

Kind regards

Manouchehr


Cry You make me sad. I can't read German at all and therefore this what sounds like an excellent resource is out of my grasp. I would love to be able to read that analysis. I don't think Oakeshott would mind being told he was incorrect, he always struck me as being a rather humble gentlemen quick to admit to his own errors and correct them where he could.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Sorry Russ. But the book is still worth buying for its pictures. My article that I wrote for Persian Mirror has lots of information from her book and I think it provides enough information. Let me know if you need any further information. Surely Mr. Oakshott was a true gentleman. We all owe him a lot. He has done an excellent job in providing us with all those information.

KInd regards

Manouchehr

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Micha Hofmann wrote:
Wow. Happy That is am amazing sword.

Now i'm looking forward to going to Vienna even more. ( Booked the tickets and hostel last week Happy ).
I'll probably read the book by Schulze-Dörlamm before I go.

Thanks a lot for the great information, Manouchehr.


You are very welcome Micha. Vienna is a wonderful city. I am sure you will love it and the museum.

KInd regards

Manouchehr

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C.L. Miller




PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are a few scans from the excellent Schulze-Dörlamm book Manouchehr mentioned.
I'll second his recommendation... it's a very fine book, well worth owning.




Last edited by C.L. Miller on Tue 20 Mar, 2007 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Manouchehr M. wrote:
You will be happy to hear that we isnpected the Zeremonienschwert as well and have all the related dimensions and also pictures. The pommel is made of solid silver and is gilded. Now the interesting part is that the quillon is made of olive wood and covered with gold plates that are chased, enamelled and partially decorated with filigree. An amazing work. Still the blade is a very solid funcational blade.


That's fantastic to hear! Would you be willing to share that information with us (possibly in a separate thread), or do you have an upcoming article about it? I'm fascinated by Frederick II and would love to hear anything you've learned concerning his coronation sword (though it was considerably altered a century or so later by Charles IV).
Thanks, as always, for your wonderful contributions Manouchehr!
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

C.L. Miller wrote:
Manouchehr M. wrote:
You will be happy to hear that we isnpected the Zeremonienschwert as well and have all the related dimensions and also pictures. The pommel is made of solid silver and is gilded. Now the interesting part is that the quillon is made of olive wood and covered with gold plates that are chased, enamelled and partially decorated with filigree. An amazing work. Still the blade is a very solid funcational blade.


That's fantastic to hear! Would you be willing to share that information with us (possibly in a separate thread), or do you have an upcoming article about it? I'm fascinated by Frederick II and would love to hear anything you've learned concerning his coronation sword (though it was considerably altered a century or so later by Charles IV).
Thanks, as always, for your wonderful contributions Manouchehr!


Thank you C.L. for posting these pictures. I really appreciate it. I would surely share the information with all my friends here, That is a pleasure for me to do that. I will have an upcoming article on this sword and will post in couple of weeks. I have some more articles in the pipeline first.

Thanks for your kind words.

Kind regards

Manocuhehr

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Sword of St. Maurice of Vienna         Reply with quote

Manouchehr M. wrote:
Sorry Russ. But the book is still worth buying for its pictures. My article that I wrote for Persian Mirror has lots of information from her book and I think it provides enough information.
KInd regards

Manouchehr


That in and of itself is good to know. I will look into this one as well. You are going to bankrupt me with buying books. Happy

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C.L. Miller wrote:
Here are a few scans from the excellent Schulze-Dörlamm book Manouchehr mentioned.
I'll second his recommendation... it's a very fine book, well worth owning.


Dagnabbit all I got were the dreaded red Xs anyone else see these pictures?

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