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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Axes from Trilj, Croatia - 6th or 10th century piece? Reply to topic
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Matija Horvat





Joined: 25 Nov 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2012 4:23 am    Post subject: Axes from Trilj, Croatia - 6th or 10th century piece?         Reply with quote

Greetings everyone!

In Croatia near Trilj are discovered two two-handed axes (they are discovered long ago, so its not a breaking news).Archeologist Ante Milosevic dates them into 7th century, while historian Tomislav Aralica think that they are from 10th century.Unfortunately, I dont have any literature about axes, so I cannot say who is wrong and who is right.They look to me like a something from Varangian inventory.Here is a picture of them:



Height of the crescent axe´s blade is 21,7 cm, so they are pretty large.What do you think?To which age are they belonging - late antiquity or early medieval ages?Which type are it?

P.S. Sorry for my bad english Happy .
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Matija Horvat





Joined: 25 Nov 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2012 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a better picture and scetch of one of the axes:


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Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not really knowledgeable about this, but I know that there are axes more or less similar to those ('crescent blade, thin eye, sometimes slight hammer on the other side) in Poland and generally all over Slavic territiories.

They're generally dated to around Xth century, dunno how accurately, but that would fit the later dating.

http://znaleziska.org/wiki/index.php/Topór_z_Poznania-Lubonia


http://znaleziska.org/wiki/index.php/Topór_(Lednica)
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Matija Horvat





Joined: 25 Nov 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bartek Strojek wrote:
I'm not really knowledgeable about this, but I know that there are axes more or less similar to those ('crescent blade, thin eye, sometimes slight hammer on the other side) in Poland and generally all over Slavic territiories.

They're generally dated to around Xth century, dunno how accurately, but that would fit the later dating.

http://znaleziska.org/wiki/index.php/Topór_z_Poznania-Lubonia


http://znaleziska.org/wiki/index.php/Topór_(Lednica)


Thanks for the help Bartek Happy.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i first also thought they had some norse touch about them, but did the varangians have any business in croatia ?
dober dan Happy
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Arek Przybylok




Location: Upper Silesia
Joined: 16 Jan 2007

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2012 11:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi
I don not think those analogies are proper Happy
In his Drevnerusskoe oruzhie, Kirpichnikov writes they are type II of axes. They are dated to 10th- beginning of 11th century.
Even so, they could be earlier:
http://www.worldmuseumofman.org/display.php?item=7

Both of those examples from Poland present two different types. On one of them we can see a hammer (yours alike- this is "czekan"/ "Чекан"). While the second one has not any (this is normal axe, topór/ Топор)

http://diebgasse.blogspot.com/
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Matija Horvat





Joined: 25 Nov 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gottfried P. Doerler wrote:
i first also thought they had some norse touch about them, but did the varangians have any business in croatia ?
dober dan Happy


Dobar dan i tebi Gottfried Happy.
Unfortunately, I dont know.Not a single source mentions Varangians in medieval Croatia.But, those axes could be a result of trade between Svyatoslav I and Croats - after all, he did conquer Bulgaria with his Varangians and Russinas in second half of 10th century.

Arek Przybylok wrote:
Hi
I don not think those analogies are proper Happy
In his Drevnerusskoe oruzhie, Kirpichnikov writes they are type II of axes. They are dated to 10th- beginning of 11th century.


Which axes?Those from Trilj, or those from Poland, which were posted by Bartek?

Arek Przybylok wrote:
Even so, they could be earlier:
http://www.worldmuseumofman.org/display.php?item=7


Wow, thanks for the link.That axe surely looks like a T-shaped one from Trilj Happy.

Anyway, here is a link to download an article of Aralica - but article is in croatian:

http://www.4shared.com/office/qbb17YWM/Sjekire.html

Here is a translation made by me:

"On the third picture there is a piece found in river Cetina near Trilj.It is a so-called T-shaped axe with double expanded blade.Neck of the blade has, on the upper end, pointy hump.Similar axe is found at the Nartski Novaki, and in the Middle Danube region.This type of axe is dated into first half of 6th century and it is proclaimed a probably local late-antiquity product (Milosevic, 1988., page 200).I dont agree with this, because analog piece from Nartski Novaki has form of slot and hammer-end (which is not to be found on late-antiquity axes), similar to some types of viking axes from 10th and 11th century (Kirpicnikov, 1966., page 30, his types III. and IV.).So, I think that it is proper to date this axe into 10th century.Btw, T-shaped axes are characteristic for Byzantium, where they could be found also in late medieval age, and they are also presented on frescoes (Skrivanic, 1957., picture 52)."

Translation is not perfect, but I think that you can understand it Happy.

Axe from Nartski Novaki could be found here, last one on the page 14:

http://www.google.hr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q...K2BZ4Pg7Aw

Axe is dated, along with other axes and materials, between 8th and 10th century.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,229

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2012 4:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I also think any dating before 10th century for these axes is very likely to be wrong. Similar axes in Poland in 10th or 11th century and the fact that these axes are two handed, point to the conclusion that these axes are probably same period and serve the same role as all other european two handed axes: 10th to 14th century, for use by a well armored infantrymen... After that period there are more poleaxes than regular two handed axes but here in eastern Europe you can see two handed axes quite late.
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Arek Przybylok




Location: Upper Silesia
Joined: 16 Jan 2007

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matija Horvat wrote:

Which axes?


Those from Trilj Happy

http://diebgasse.blogspot.com/
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Matija Horvat





Joined: 25 Nov 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat 13 Oct, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arek Przybylok wrote:
Matija Horvat wrote:

Which axes?


Those from Trilj Happy


Thank you very much Happy.Sorry for not answering you sooner, I had a little problem with my PC.
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Jan D.





Joined: 09 Sep 2018

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon 08 Oct, 2018 2:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for this post, it helped with my research.

Those axes are probably byzantine. roughly 10th. cent imho.

few people reenacting byzantine guards heve replica, unfortunatelly i can not find photo right now.
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Ralph Grinly





Joined: 19 Jan 2011

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Tue 09 Oct, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

as a general principal..UNLESS an object is found in a Dateable context..it's probably safer to assume a later, rather than an earlier date.
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