[Chad Arnow]

I've always liked the Wallace Collection ballock dagger set. I'm actually thinking about having a set made that would be somewhat loosely based on it.

Here's my question: Is this dagger (or ballock daggers of its era c. 1450) more of a civilian weapon than a military one? The blade is over 10 inches long, which might be long for a civilian weapon. Looking at effigies and brasses, rondel daggers seem to be pretty popular for military folks. It's actually not easy to find ballock daggers represented after say 1425 or so.

[Justin King]

Likely to depend on region as well as time period. "Arms & Armor of the Medieval Knight " shows a Flemish or German ballock dagger c 1550 with a scabbard, by-knife and pricker. Some dudgeon daggers bear a strong resemblance to ballocks and the dirk is widely considered to be a later variant, both of these were also popular in regions where German blades were in high demand in later periods, so it may be that it was popular longer in northern Europe. Rondels seem to me to be much more represented on effigies though, from what I have seen (which is limited).

[Chad Arnow]

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

[Merv Cannon]

Ref new post

[Chad Arnow]

[Chad Arnow]

Richard,
Thanks for the information. I'd already looked through the Hefner-Alteneck book and some others. I was really looking for info more closely related to circa 1450.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the date of the Wallace set? Various publications date it anywhere between 1450 and 1550.

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Disclaimer: Medieval and Renaissance weapons are not an area in which I have tremendous knowledge...

...but I do have some Peter Finer catalogs and have found a very similar ballock dagger that is dated to c.1470 (Peter Finer IN ARMIS ARS MMI, item 9). The date is based on the hilt form:

A Fine and Rare French or English Ballock Dagger, the silver mounts bearing shields engraved with the arms of Grandison, circa 1470

This dagger can be dated to the seconf half of the 15th century on the basis of the shape of the guard mount, formed of curious indented terminals which are probably intended to represent dragons' heads. Fully representational dragons' heads folded close down the blade appear on th ewell-known Burgundian dagger made for Johann Amerbach-Ortenberg, now in the Historisches Museum, Basel. It has been dated to the late 15th century.

The distinctive grip with large lobes and tapering profile is a feature that appears on a number of daggers which can be dated to the late 15th century. These include examples from the Laking, Keasby, and Wallace collections.

Overall length: 17 3/4"
Blade length: 12 3/8"

Please see attachment for photos.

Jonathan

[Richard Fay]

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

Hey Chad!

I found a couple similar ballock daggers dated to the late fifteenth or early sixteenth century. Both are in Claude Blair's European & American Arms. And, both have similar down-drooping metal quillons under the "bulbs" of the wooden grip.

One Is a German ballock-knife (Blair calls them ballock-knives) of the late fifteenth century. It is, or was, in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, number 26.145.17. It's 390 mm long (about 15.35 inches). It has a larger flat, discoid pommel (Blair calls it a washer), with a greater flare toward the quillons than the Wallace collection ballock dagger, but it does have similarly-shaped down-turned metal quillons.

The other is an actual knife set, with a ballock dagger and accessories, of Johann Amerbach-Ortenburg (1430-1513). It's a Burgundian example of the late fifteenth century. The grip is of agate, of a more explicit shape (if you know what I mean) than the Wallace collection dagger. It has mounts of silver-gilt, of a similar shape to the Wallace collection dagger, but of a more decorated nature. It is, or was, in the Historisches Museum, Basel (Number 1882. 109).

Since both the daggers mentioned above have some features in common with the Wallace Collection dagger, one even being a dagger set with accessories, I think you could date the Wallace Collection dagger to the mid-late fifteenth century. It may be a possibility, anyway.

In case this is helpful at all, I'll include the general information Claude Blair penned about ballock daggers in the same work:

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Richard,
I have found the opposite to be true regarding 16th century ballock daggers--that's almost all I could find in my books. As far as art, here is an image of Saint Eustace by Durer from 1503, and he has what appears to be a nice ballock dagger hanging at his right hip:

[Richard Fay]

[Chad Arnow]

Some of Manouchehr's pictures from the Musée de l'Armée in Paris show ballock daggers from the mid to late 15th century. Looking at the blade cross-sections, they appear to be military daggers more than civilian weapons.







Here's the placard for many of the daggers he posted: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=13786

Cool stuff!

Does anyone else have any thoughts on whether the Wallace Collection ballock dagger would be a battlefield weapon or not?

[Nathan Robinson]

[Chad Arnow]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Chad;

Avoiding getting stuck on definition of words i.e. " battlefield weapons " I would think that if a blade type that would seem like a good backup weapon for armoured combat is used with a ballock styled hilt, I tend to think there would be no distinction as far as practical use is concerned.

If a rondel was only worn with armour and rarely worn with civilian clothes there might be a cultural / legalistic prohibition to wear one " in everyday carry ". The ballock seems to have been very O.K. for civilian wear but might also have been used in war ? Not, sure if these distinctions actually were true or just a modern interpretation. ( Assuming that this interpretation is actually more than in just my mind based on the fact that we are asking the question ??? )

Oh, and I see many blades that would work as a rondel blade also being used in ballock daggers.

Also, some ballock single edge blades that look more general purpose knives that could be pressed into service as weapons or used to attack a roast chicken.

[Manouchehr M.]

Gentlemen,

Is it correct to say that rondel daggers were used only on battlefields? Or were they also used as civilian daggers?

Kind regards

Manouchehr

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Andreas Auer]

Hi Folks !

this is my second entry in this forum, and i just wanted to say thanks for your interesting replys...

i live in Innsbruck austria, and we have a rich culture in Late medieval warfare...(Maximilian I). i investigated all "roundel daggers" in my area. in german they are called "Scheibendolch" or diskdagger...and everyone have a pure thrustigblade to penetrate platearmour. and every bollockdagger i saw have one or twosided cuttingblades not very effective on thrusting on the battlefield at this times (ca.1450 to 1490). so my thoughts on this are bullockdaggers were a kind of everyday allpurpose tool or knive (sure could be used to defend or attack) and a scheibendolch was a pure battlefield weapon...

so these are my observations, what do you think?


Andreas Auer

Innsbruck
Tirol

[Jeff Ross]

I find it interesting that Talhoffer shows ballock daggers in his 1443 dagger section, but in the 1459 dagger version shows rondel daggers in use. These are both unarmored single combat, same author, 15 years difference in time. Perhaps this reflects a change in local popularity between the styles in the mid 15th century? Does not seem to be a battlefield vs civilian difference in context though.

Jeff Ross