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Felix Wang




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Along with Omdurman, there is another well documented collision between cavalry forces in the 19th century - the charge of the Heavy Brigade at Balaklava. There were plenty of witnesses, including members of the Light Brigade, who were about to launch their own, more spectacular but less successful charge.

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/crimea/paget/heavy.html

Since the vastly superior Russian force was at a standstill and uphill, it is highly likely that the British force actually made contact with them - it is this fight in which the British sabers had trouble cutting through the Russian overcoats, so actual hand to hand combat must have occurred.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette,

If I am a pikeman existing around this time -- what sort of equipment would I have? Lets say I'm Swiss, as they seem to be pretty good.

What about my opponent? He's French. (Did France field Pikes?)

M.

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Mikael Ranelius




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr, 2007 4:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix Wang wrote:
Along with Omdurman, there is another well documented collision between cavalry forces in the 19th century - the charge of the Heavy Brigade at Balaklava. There were plenty of witnesses, including members of the Light Brigade, who were about to launch their own, more spectacular but less successful charge.

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/crimea/paget/heavy.html

Since the vastly superior Russian force was at a standstill and uphill, it is highly likely that the British force actually made contact with them - it is this fight in which the British sabers had trouble cutting through the Russian overcoats, so actual hand to hand combat must have occurred.


Don't forget the 16th lancers who broke two sikh squares at the battle of Aliwal in 1848
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, yes, I nearly forgot the Sikh Wars. This site:

http://www.britishbattles.com

has even more information about the exploits of the crazy British horsemen in those wars.

Quote:
If I am a pikeman existing around this time -- what sort of equipment would I have? Lets say I'm Swiss, as they seem to be pretty good.

What about my opponent? He's French. (Did France field Pikes?)


Well, if you're wondering about the Swiss, the Features page on them actually has some interesting info, although mostly restricted to the 16th century. But, in general, a Swiss pike formation was composed mostly of unarmored or lightly-armored men, with the most well-armored forming a "crust" around the formation to protect the unarmored core. They seem to have adopted more armor as the 16th century progressed.

Now, about the French...which French army? it would help a great deal if you could provide a timeframe for this discussion, since the French military establishment was in a state of constant change throughout the Middle Ages, and especially during the 15th and 16th centuries. At the beginning of the Italian Wars they employed native pikemen in the Vielles Bandes, but if I remember correctly they were inferior compared to the Swiss and Landsknechts. And, of course, the French began to employ the Swiss in large numbers quite early in the 16th century.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How bout 15th century French pikemen?

And I will give that article a read-through; I must have overlooked it.

M.

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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

15th century pikemen in the French army...well, I'm not entirely sure about that. Some (modern) authors say that the Scots (both the official royal expedition and the mercenaries) who fought for the French during the Hundred Years' War included a contingent of Lowland pikes, while others contend that it brought only men-at-arms and archers. Later on, the Ordinances do not seem to say all that much regarding the use of pikes, since the French companies were essentially formed of men-at-arms and archers, too--though even these archers would later become heavy cavalry rather than mounted infantry as they were originally intended to be. The auxiliary troops were principally francs-archers, who were armed with bows or crossbows.

When the French crown was on good terms with its Low Countries subjects, we could expect them to employ pikemen from there. They seem to also have employed some pike-armed men from the areas that bordered on the Holy Roman Empire.

Of course, talking about France doesn't necessarily mean talking about the French Crown. The Duchy of Burgundy--whose Ordonnance companies included a number of pikemen on foot--was also technically a French subject, albeit a particularly rebellious one at that. You can find information about the equipment of these Burgundian pikes in many places on the Web, since the Burgundian Ordinances is a fairly well-researched subject. I believe the article on Burgundy in the Features section has something to say about it.
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Felix Wang




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The britishbattles site has this to say about Aliwal:

"The charge of the right wing of HM 16th Lancers is said to have been led by a Sergeant Newsome, who shouted out “Hullo boys, here goes for death or a commission.” He leapt his horse over the kneeling front rank of Sikh infantry and went to grab a Sikh colour. He was killed by 19 bayonet wounds. It is reported that the squadron managed to break into the square because Newsome’s horse was so fiery and ill-trained that it went straight through the infantry. Peacetime cavalry training had horses breaking around an infantry square which made it difficult to persuade them to do otherwise in a real battle. "

This is a bit different from the issue of units colliding with each other; an out-of -control horse can cause a great deal of trouble around it. Once a hole is created, the square tended to collapse.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2007 4:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a case of cavalry coming into contact with unbroken infantry, however. Just like what the British KGL did in that small encounter at Garcia Hernandez, in the aftermath of the Battle of Salamanca
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Jaroslav Kravcak




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Nov, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

Archery aside, 16th-century horsemen at least were quite aware that corners were the weakest points of a pike formation, and they generally directed their charges against these corners--preferably one of the rear corners. All the examples I can recall of horsemen cutting their way through pike formations, whether at Ravenna, Ceresole, or Dreux, were cases where they charged against either a corner or a temporary gap in the pike block.


I cant find any source stating explicitly, that in either of these battles cavalry attacked corner or any specific information about how they got inside. Where is it from?
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Nov, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
They probably would have targeted on the huge lump that is the sum of man and horse without bothering to distinguish which is which.


That may well be how it played out in practice, but sixteenth-century military author Humphrey Barwick expected pikemen to target specific parts of the horse with their weapons. He recommended targeting the chest rather than the head, because he considered chest armor less common and either to penetrate than head armor.

As far as the broader question goes, the nineteenth-century examples combined with my reading of sixteenth-century manuals convinces me that cavalry could and did charge right into infantry on occasion. Sixteenth-century writers - excepting perhaps Machiavelli - thought only pikes or perhaps halberds in a pinch could resist heavy horse. Though they never advocated it, they anticipated the possibility cavalry running headlong into pikes and instructed how to defeat such charges.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Nov, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jaroslav Kravcak wrote:
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

Archery aside, 16th-century horsemen at least were quite aware that corners were the weakest points of a pike formation, and they generally directed their charges against these corners--preferably one of the rear corners. All the examples I can recall of horsemen cutting their way through pike formations, whether at Ravenna, Ceresole, or Dreux, were cases where they charged against either a corner or a temporary gap in the pike block.


I cant find any source stating explicitly, that in either of these battles cavalry attacked corner or any specific information about how they got inside. Where is it from?


Wow. That's an old post from an old discussion. I'm much more careful with my sources now, and I can't find 16th-century primary sources that give a detailed account of how cavalry charges against pike blocks were executed either. However, 19th-century military manuals do mention that corners tend to be the weakest points of an infantry square and recommend cavalry to aim for the corner if they had to charge an unbroken square at all. It would be reasonable to extrapolate this to 16th-century cavalry practices, but we probably can never know for certain.

You might also want to ask Daniel Staberg. I recall him posting about a detailed interpretation of how these charges against pike formations proceeded, particularly at Dreux.
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Jaroslav Kravcak




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PostPosted: Wed 07 Nov, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Jaroslav Kravcak wrote:
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

Archery aside, 16th-century horsemen at least were quite aware that corners were the weakest points of a pike formation, and they generally directed their charges against these corners--preferably one of the rear corners. All the examples I can recall of horsemen cutting their way through pike formations, whether at Ravenna, Ceresole, or Dreux, were cases where they charged against either a corner or a temporary gap in the pike block.


I cant find any source stating explicitly, that in either of these battles cavalry attacked corner or any specific information about how they got inside. Where is it from?


Wow. That's an old post from an old discussion. I'm much more careful with my sources now, and I can't find 16th-century primary sources that give a detailed account of how cavalry charges against pike blocks were executed either. However, 19th-century military manuals do mention that corners tend to be the weakest points of an infantry square and recommend cavalry to aim for the corner if they had to charge an unbroken square at all. It would be reasonable to extrapolate this to 16th-century cavalry practices, but we probably can never know for certain.

You might also want to ask Daniel Staberg. I recall him posting about a detailed interpretation of how these charges against pike formations proceeded, particularly at Dreux.


True its old, I was browsing history and replied when I saw it without looking for actual time when this discussion happened. Eek!

Im just curious, as I try to look for a specific information about how things happened considering especially the aforementioned battles (Ceresole, Dreux), I also tryed to put some reasonable casualty count for french together, almost exclusively from the sources available through internet, but I havent seen too precise accounts really describing it step by step in amount of detail I find satisfactory. (not even describing, let alone being perfectly accurate with high propability Happy ) My conclusion so far is, there is no way to find out today how it really happened. This just ignited hope. Laughing Out Loud

One more question remains regarding battle of Cerisoles. Or rather few of them. If french gendarmes are mentioned as transfixing imperial square, does it inevitably means all or most did it, or does it mean one or maybe few little groups accomplished it to the amazement of people seeing it?

And regarding casualties in this particular example: Wouldnt firepower be devastating against french while actual passes of cavalry be devastating to infantry? My best shot on how could it came to be is to extrapolate from the example of battle of Grandson, where breach was made by Louis de Chatel Guyon by leaping over front pikes of the swiss creating temporary gap (surely with huge amount lack for him and his horse to survive), which few more riders were able to exploit. This was supposedly marked as most critical point of battle as they managed to hack their way right into the middle where they eventually died trying to capture Bernese (not sure if not someone elses flag) kiling 30 swiss in the process, or in other words maybe more than 10 percent of total dead count for them that day. And it was one small group against maybe the best of the best, that infantry could place against them, most would have propably never be able to reform after such blow to morale and disintegrated. Maybe if they havent bothered with stopping in the middle of the enemy to wrestle for standards, they couldve eventually extricate themselves and pop out on the other side like it is descrinbed at Dreux, or Ceresole.

This should supposedly be mentioned in the letter to the council of Bern by commander of their contingent in this battle, but I havent really physically seen it. But its mentioned by Bob Reed at armourarchive forums and I trust his quotes as I find him well versed regarding this topic.

So what if something similar happened at Ceresole? Only few actually got inside by some accident to be admired later, causing proportionally many, but overally insignificant casualties and shock, not enough to break the enemy, while most french stopped well before any contact to be shot to pieces? Can this scenario of what happened at Ceresole be completely ruled out as impropable from some period source? I havent found anything completely disproving it, but my reading is only limited and my best informations and ideas where to look generally come from other people studying it more in depth.

Its just personal wish to be able to picture how could it have happened back then in these specific examples, I dont regard detailed description of what happened there minute by minute as anything significant or revolutionary, regarding history of warfare.
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