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Jean Henri Chandler
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 Posted: Fri 06 Apr, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | For a somewhat less romantic view of the berserkers I recommend that you look into The Viking Art of War by Paddy Griffith. Griffith, who was a lecturer in War Studies at Sandhurst for sixteen years, mentions the berserkers in several places in the book and devotes a brief section of one chapter to them. Overall he feels that they were probably warriors of some renown who had been specially selected as shock troops by their overlord. |
The problem with that theory is that the sagas discuss Berzerkers in quite a bit of detail in a civilian context. They were around a long time before the rise of Kings like Harald Bluetooth.
The Berserkers ended up being associated with aspiring kings and jarls because these ambitious leaders were the first to really succesffully employ them in battle They did not function well in an ordinary militia or Viking brotherhood type military unit due to their apparently fratricidal tendancies. Again, from the sagas it appears that when the first aspiring kings appeared they took these men who had been essentially a nuisance in norse society and used them as soldiers to further their agenda.
There is also by the way mention of pagan cult activities among Varangian guards by the Byzantines, which sounds a great deal like Berserkers.
Again, remember, there seem to have been at least two distinct types of Berserkers. The Ulfhednar appear to have been a bit more disciplined or controllable.
I agree with you about the similarity with the Celtic Warp-Change i mentioned that as well.
But I think the jury is very much still out on what this all actually was, I don't think it can be easily dismissed or explained with the current level of understanding of the phenomena.
Jean
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Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Fri 06 Apr, 2007 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 06 Apr, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | The sagas themselves, which are full of fantasy and fact, |
Some of the Sagas were a bit more outlandish than others, dealing with dragons and the like. The later family sagas were much more prosaic.
J
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Fri 06 Apr, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
Some of the Sagas were a bit more outlandish than others, dealing with dragons and the like. The later family sagas were much more prosaic.
J |
I certainly agree. However, you can still find a lot of fantasy in the more factual sagas. Don't forget the uniped that appears in Eirik's Saga. It shot an arrow in Thorvald Eiriksson's groin and killed him. And, there is the talking corpse of Thorstein Eiriksson in the Graenlendinga Saga. We know that many of the events, places and people mentioned in these two sagas existed and have the physical evidence to prove it. But the fantastic continues to creep in.
My only point is that the berserkers as mentioned in the sagas may or may not bear close resemblance to what they actually were and the more fantastic the description the less credence we should probably assign to it.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Fri 06 Apr, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm...well, the thing about being "lunatic" might also be a more common thing among high-quality troops. The Russians thought the British cavalrymen who participated in the Charge of the Light Brigade were drunk, while the Indian opponents of Arthur Wellesley (later to be Duke of Wellington) were scared out of their wits when a Scottish regiment continued advancing in spite of having lost about 85% of their number--they thought the Scots were either crazy or not human at all.
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Gene Green
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| Posted: Sat 07 Apr, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | Hmm...well, the thing about being "lunatic" might also be a more common thing among high-quality troops. The Russians thought the British cavalrymen who participated in the Charge of the Light Brigade were drunk, while the Indian opponents of Arthur Wellesley (later to be Duke of Wellington) were scared out of their wits when a Scottish regiment continued advancing in spite of having lost about 85% of their number--they thought the Scots were either crazy or not human at all. |
Well, the Russians thought the cavalrymen of the Light Brigade to be drunk not because of their unnatural bravery, but because of an apparent suicidal stupidity of their action, which they couldn't explain otherwise (in reality, the British upper command simply issued an order to attack the Russian artillery position in a wonderfully vague and non-specific way, so the Light Brigade ended up attacking a wrong position altogether, and getting slaughtered in the process).
I read that Berserk warriors were getting high on hallucinogens found in mushrooms (Amanita muscaria, or Fly Agaric), and that the practice was actually banned in XI century. However I only found this in Russian sources. Apparently some of the native peoples of Siberia and Ural in later centuries (XIV-XVII) were also known to use mushrooms (actually the boiled extracts) before the battle. If I find a scientific source for this claim I'll post it.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sat 07 Apr, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Gene Green wrote: | | Well, the Russians thought the cavalrymen of the Light Brigade to be drunk not because of their unnatural bravery, but because of an apparent suicidal stupidity of their action, which they couldn't explain otherwise (in reality, the British upper command simply issued an order to attack the Russian artillery position in a wonderfully vague and non-specific way, so the Light Brigade ended up attacking a wrong position altogether, and getting slaughtered in the process). |
They did end up attacking the wrong position--in the valley instead of on the neighboring heights--but I suppose it would be too much to say that they got slaughtered. They actually won the encounter, driving back both the Russian gunners and their supporting troops before repelling several Russian counterattack. If only Lord Cathcart's infantry support had arrived, the position might have been taken and consolidated even though it would still have been under fire from one of the heights.
And, in fact, despite being a tactical defeat, it was a strategic victory of a sort. The Russian cavalry refused to engage their British adversaries whenever they met for the rest of the war, fearing that the "drunken horsemen" would cut them up so badly as they did twice at Balaklava.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 07 Apr, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Gene Green wrote: |
Well, the Russians thought the cavalrymen of the Light Brigade to be drunk not because of their unnatural bravery, but because of an apparent suicidal stupidity of their action, which they couldn't explain otherwise (in reality, the British upper command simply issued an order to attack the Russian artillery position in a wonderfully vague and non-specific way, so the Light Brigade ended up attacking a wrong position altogether, and getting slaughtered in the process).
I read that Berserk warriors were getting high on hallucinogens found in mushrooms (Amanita muscaria, or Fly Agaric), and that the practice was actually banned in XI century. However I only found this in Russian sources. Apparently some of the native peoples of Siberia and Ural in later centuries (XIV-XVII) were also known to use mushrooms (actually the boiled extracts) before the battle. If I find a scientific source for this claim I'll post it. |
I don't know the details of the particular battle (other than what I read in the Flashman book) but based on general military practices over the years, the guys in the light brigade could very well have been drunk. Boozing up the troops and drinking before battle was a routine practice in many armies from at least World War II, going all the way back to the bronze age, and probably before that. I remember reading the British in North Africa could sometimes tell when a German attack was coming when they could smell the schnapps on the wind...
JR
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Tue 10 Apr, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: |
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[quote=\"Alex Oster\"]Its just the records of the trembling and other symptoms before the fight and the long term suffering afterwards that perked my thoughts.[/quote]
This might have come from intense religious rituals that were eradicated by christianism: people who try to reconstruct seriously the ancient nordic religion would probably have to say interesting things on such matters.
Such rites are being replicated by modern odinists, possibly with a certain level of arbitrariety due to christian damnatio memoriae, as far as I know the matter this should be the state of things.
You should be careful when checking odinists websites since some of such organizations are a bit on the quirk side, but the religious inspiration of berserkers and ulfhednars is recognized by serious scholars.
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A. Jake Storey II
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| Posted: Thu 12 Apr, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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The stories I've heard about Berserkrs remind me some-what of some stories of special forces Operations detachment-Delta. They are known for an insane love of combat, going into situations most people would think insane with a Cowboy esk manor. If you've seen Black Hawk Down, you will have an idea of what I mean. It has also been reported the the "Delta-Force" (I realy hate that term) have used clean-meth (meth that doesn't contain the toxins the stuf on the streat has.) on some missions where they won't have time to eat and will need as much streangth as they can get.
Though this has nothing to do with history, I think the simularities betwean the two are interesting.
Only you can deny yourself your rights.
Too ignore the rights of others, is to forfeit you own!
Thereby, in your crime, YOU bring Justice on your own head!!!
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Fri 13 Apr, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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[quote=\"A. Jake Storey II\"]The stories I\'ve heard about Berserkrs remind me some-what of some stories of special forces Operations detachment-Delta. They are known for an insane love of combat, going into situations most people would think insane with a Cowboy esk manor. If you\'ve seen Black Hawk Down, you will have an idea of what I mean. It has also been reported the the \"Delta-Force\" (I realy hate that term) have used clean-meth (meth that doesn\'t contain the toxins the stuf on the streat has.) on some missions where they won\'t have time to eat and will need as much streangth as they can get.
Though this has nothing to do with history, I think the simularities betwean the two are interesting.[/quote]
Doping of soldiers has been going on in modern times at least since ww1.
Italian soldier\'s spirits were reinforced in the trenches with abundant and well encouraged shots of cordiale, a powerful and intoxicant alchoolic beverage (could italians get high in battle with anything but alchool ..).
Still generously offered with modern italian K rations.
On the german side scientists were experimenting with chemicals, creating the first synthetic drugst that today have become a social plague as much as heavy drinking.
Such substances were briefly experimented and abandoned quickly for their toxicity.
It is attested in diaries that many italian soldiers refused to drink since it turned out that bayonet assaults required soldiers having the highest command of their brain.
To be drunk meant to lose precious reflexes, getting stabbed very quickly by a more responsive opponent.
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Vegard Stomsvik Pedersen
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: Thanks! |
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I want to thank you all for your replys on this topic!
Skål!
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
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[quote=\"Gene Green\"][quote=\"Lafayette C Curtis\"]Hmm...well, the thing about being \"lunatic\" might also be a more common thing among high-quality troops. The Russians thought the British cavalrymen who participated in the Charge of the Light Brigade were drunk, while the Indian opponents of Arthur Wellesley (later to be Duke of Wellington) were scared out of their wits when a Scottish regiment continued advancing in spite of having lost about 85% of their number--they thought the Scots were either crazy or not human at all.[/quote]
Well, the Russians thought the cavalrymen of the Light Brigade to be drunk not because of their unnatural bravery, but because of an apparent suicidal stupidity of their action, which they couldn\'t explain otherwise (in reality, the British upper command simply issued an order to attack the Russian artillery position in a wonderfully vague and non-specific way, so the Light Brigade ended up attacking a wrong position altogether, and getting slaughtered in the process).
I read that Berserk warriors were getting high on hallucinogens found in mushrooms (Amanita muscaria, or Fly Agaric), and that the practice was actually banned in XI century. However I only found this in Russian sources. Apparently some of the native peoples of Siberia and Ural in later centuries (XIV-XVII) were also known to use mushrooms (actually the boiled extracts) before the battle. If I find a scientific source for this claim I\'ll post it.[/quote]
I have also read of amanita muscaria being used by \"witches\" in historical christian times in the italian Alpine range.
Be aware that amanita muscaria is a deadly mushroom, until a few decades ago when mushroom picking became a new sport of the italian vacationeers, all unaware city dwellers, many cases of mortal or serious poisoning where registered.
The active part is the red upper \"skin\".
Locals know it well and told me of its association to witchcraft in ancient times.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: |
You should be careful when checking odinists websites since some of such organizations are a bit on the quirk side, but the religious inspiration of berserkers and ulfhednars is recognized by serious scholars. |
Ana Comnena describes the Varangian guards as participating in wierd frenzied religious rites dressed in animal skins (bear and wolf?) in the Alexiad. Other Byzantines commented on this as well. They seemed to believe it contributed to their fearlessness in battle and love of combat. Ana Comnena also commented that unlike the quite skilled and tough Byzantine troops, the Varangians actually liked to get into a battle and sought the opportunity.
Although it's probably incorrect to even use the word "religon", because I understand the pagan norse didn't even have this concept, their spirituality was more personal and as I understand it, not centrallly organized. I don't even think they had a professional priest class like the druids. It was more of a part time thing everybody was into to a greater or lesser extent.
jean
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: |
Locals know it well and told me of its association to witchcraft in ancient times. |
Thats very interesting. Can you post a link to a source on that?
I can't imagine fighting on mushrooms, that would be a sensory overload among other things, though I guess people can get used to anything. I think I would find that terrifying.
jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Mikael Ranelius
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
Although it's probably incorrect to even use the word "religon", because I understand the pagan norse didn't even have this concept, their spirituality was more personal and as I understand it, not centrallly organized. I don't even think they had a professional priest class like the druids. It was more of a part time thing everybody was into to a greater or lesser extent.
jean |
Partly true, but there appears to have been some organisation to it. For instance, in pagan Iceland we know they had special chieftains with religious functions, or Godar. These were responsible for the blot or ritual sacrifice. In Svithiod (Mälar region in present day Sweden), the Svea king seems to have had an important role in the cult of Oden, Tor and Frej at the temple of Uppsala. The pagan Svea kings considered themselves to be decendants of the god Frej and heirs to the god Oden (Odin/ Wotan), and this was an important aspect to legitimate their position as rulers.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Ranelius wrote: |
Partly true, but there appears to have been some organisation to it. For instance, in pagan Iceland we know they had special chieftains with religious functions, or Godar. These were responsible for the blot or ritual sacrifice. In Svithiod (Mälar region in present day Sweden), the Svea king seems to have had an important role in the cult of Oden, Tor and Frej at the temple of Uppsala. The pagan Svea kings considered themselves to be decendants of the god Frej and heirs to the god Oden (Odin/ Wotan), and this was an important aspect to legitimate their position as rulers. |
Very interesting.
I knew about the Godar but I thought the religious role became more prominent after conversion to Christianity. I'd be interested to read more about the Svea kings, were they a late development or something from further back? Were they kings or 'kings' (i.e. chieftains). Did they become kings through primogeniture as implied by being alleged descendents of Frej. Wierd that they would be associated with both Aesir and Vanir cults I thought the two cults generally didn't get along.
Jean
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Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Mikael Ranelius
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
Very interesting.
I knew about the Godar but I thought the religious role became more prominent after conversion to Christianity. I'd be interested to read more about the Svea kings, were they a late development or something from further back? Were they kings or 'kings' (i.e. chieftains). Did they become kings through primogeniture as implied by being alleged descendents of Frej. Wierd that they would be associated with both Aesir and Vanir cults I thought the two cults generally didn't get along.
Jean |
Yes, in fact the role of the Godar seems to have remained much the same after the adoption of Christianity, although instead of pagan rites and sacrifices they were responsible for maintaning churches and Christian festivals.
The Svea kings of the so called Uppsala ätt (family) died out with it's last king Emund the Old around the year 1060, and was already then of an ancient lineage. They were probably a branch of the half-mythological Ynglinga family which is known from Icelandic sagas and the Historia Norvegiae (ca 1200). The authenticity of these ancient sources is however heavily disputed among historians, and it's very difficult to separate fact from fiction. Archeological evidences show nontheless that the region around Uppsala was the seat of powerful rulers from at least the Iron age and onwards, and traditionally the ancient burials at Vendel, Valsgärde and the mounds of Uppsala has been associated with the legendary Ynglinga kings of Uppsala. These men were probably real kings, not just chieftains, although their power was based on personal achievments and relations rather than the later Christian institution of monarchy, which wasn't firmly established in Sweden until mid 13th century.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Ranelius wrote: |
The Svea kings of the so called Uppsala ätt (family) died out with it's last king Emund the Old around the year 1060, and was already then of an ancient lineage. They were probably a branch of the half-mythological Ynglinga family which is known from Icelandic sagas and the Historia Norvegiae (ca 1200). |
Oh yeah I should have remembered that, I've read the Ynglinga saga.
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Archeological evidences show nontheless that the region around Uppsala was the seat of powerful rulers from at least the Iron age and onwards, and traditionally the ancient burials at Vendel, Valsgärde and the mounds of Uppsala has been associated with the legendary Ynglinga kings of Uppsala. These men were probably real kings, not just chieftains, although their power was based on personal achievments and relations rather than the later Christian institution of monarchy, which wasn't firmly established in Sweden until mid 13th century. |
Yeah this is what I'm interested in. How did these kings govern? What were they actually in charge of? How did they levy taxes? Could they make their people go to war? Could they administer justice ? What relation did they have to the 'Thing', was there even a 'Thing' in these districts? I have read of cases where Scandinavian Jarls or "Hersir" or "kings" had disputes with this or that 'Thing', some of the latter seemed to be stronger in certain areas than others. Trondheim in Norway for example seemed to be quite independent, or was that just a matter of more rival kings or chieftains? What was the relationship of Svea kings to trading towns ala Brka, Hedeby etc. Were there even any similar towns in these areas?
Also again, how was a king of this dynasty chosen? Was it a dynasty? Was it primogeniture i.e. the first born son of the last king becomes the new ruler, or some other system like Tanistry in medieval Ireland and Scotland?
Sorry to be so inquisitive but you seem well informed and this is a subject I'm very interested in.
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Ciaran Daly
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Anecdotal evidence re: woad follows.
I had a friend, a very quiet and gentle scholarly guy, who used psychoactive drugs extensively in his teens and early twenties. He had long stopped by the time I met him, but he did relate the story of finding and mail ordering woad, grinding the root down to a blue paste, and smearing it on his skin. He said that he ran about like crazy for a few hours and compared the experience to a huge adrenaline rush and "mushrooms combined with crank". He also said that he noticed that at some point he must have run into something sharp, because he had a big gash in his forearm and didn't remember how he got it.
Not much imagination required as to why someone might use it in tribal warfare, which was a series of individual fights more than an organized battle.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Mon 16 Apr, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Ciaran Daly wrote: | Anecdotal evidence re: woad follows.
I had a friend, a very quiet and gentle scholarly guy, who used psychoactive drugs extensively in his teens and early twenties. He had long stopped by the time I met him, but he did relate the story of finding and mail ordering woad, grinding the root down to a blue paste, and smearing it on his skin. He said that he ran about like crazy for a few hours and compared the experience to a huge adrenaline rush and "mushrooms combined with crank". He also said that he noticed that at some point he must have run into something sharp, because he had a big gash in his forearm and didn't remember how he got it.
Not much imagination required as to why someone might use it in tribal warfare, which was a series of individual fights more than an organized battle. |
Thats fascinating thanks for posting that. This information about Woad definately puts some things into perspective
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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