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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Albion Munich, 1st impressions         Reply with quote

I received a production Albion Munich sword today (March 20th, 2007) and am enthralled as usual with their products.

Since I first saw the concept sketch for the Munich I considered it beautiful and perhaps appropriate to associate with a female gender. The Munich is agile and sleek in appearance, but this is very deceptive. It is surprisingly strong for its slender profile and subtle curves, lethally quick, and more vicious a cutter-killer than I expected. In relation to other swords I know well, it seems like a turbocharged Sempach.

Other than the grip length and an extra inch of blade, the Munich’s published statistics are pretty close to those of some “war swords” such as the Sempach and the 1st generation Crecy Grete. The longer grip really changes a lot of handling perceptions in a way that the statistics don’t convey. German longsword style drills with various hand positions are addictive. Rotations were so fast it generated noises similar to the release of a bow string or sling shot bullet passing by. The Munich’s grip shape and pommel seem just right to my hands (very average “large” glove sized hands) regardless of spacing. The pommel is similar to that of the Sovereign. It is a good candidate for customization with a medallion or jewel. The rivet block has a very nice touch (based on the original) that could easily have been omitted and saved for the museum line.

The Munich basically has a straight (not hollow ground) diamond cross section all of the way down the blade, and is fairly thick (3/8” thick at the spine near the guard.) This gives surprising stiffness and makes me confident it could thrust and half sword fairly well. This is no estoc, however, but a sword all of the way up the blade which could draw blood easily anywhere along its edge. At the CoP, the cutting edge is about 1-1/8” wide (shown between a 1st Generation Crecy Grete blade 1-1/4” wide, and a Sempach about 1” wide) is an approximate average between great swords I have seen that were called good cutters, versus more acutely pointed.

I constructed a target by wrapping a composite of soaked newspapers, cardboard, and duct tape around a 3/4” diameter green limb of tough holy wood. I proved that with a known cutter (my Albion Knight) I could not do much better than get 1/8” into the wood. The Munich did about the same, but the effort seemed lower. The Knight simply stopped at the limb. The power developed by the Munich's speed was such that the garbage can I affixed the target to (filled with a couple of large logs) was knocked over and sent debris sprawling across the driveway.

The Munich is a versatile sword that I suspect will be interpreted and utilized differently by people according to their own preferences and strengths. Peter Johnson likens it to well rounded warrior; “A man that belongs to the higher circles of politics, but that is at the same time a man of action. A pragmatic realist and a romantic at the same time. A warrior that has not lost his sence of beauty and proportion. Perhaps a cruel man and probably ruthless, but not an uncivilized brute.”

I find myself increasingly interested in the original museum sword and will post a little extra on that which is not commonly stated.



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Last edited by Jared Smith on Tue 20 Mar, 2007 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The actual Bayerisches Museum sword that inspired the Munich was classified by Oakeshott as a type XVIIIb, and is academically dated between 1450 and 1480. This is discussed in the Features section under the typology. http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxviii.html
It has also been discussed previously in forum posts. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4026

Peter Johnson was kind enough to reply to my inquiries regarding possible origins of the museum artifact. To read Peter’s comments on the original is something of a mix between poetry and “sword religion.” Few specifics are known with certainty.
It once belonged to a Tyrolean armory, but was seized by the Bayers in a war. Peter contemplates that its manufacture may be closer to the 1490’s and is plausible to attribute to South German craftsmanship. Design of its components appears have something in common with other famous swords. “It shares an identical guard with the XX.4 on page 211 in Records. That XX sword belonged to Oakeshott and he has personally confirmed to me that the pommel of his sword is identical to that of the pommel of the sword of Svante Nilsson Sture.” Peter is studying an intriguing theory that might someday tie the origins of the three swords together. The original’s pommel was engraved with the inscription O MARIA BIT WIR UNS (Oh Mary, Stand by Us.) It has a rectangular grip of ornately tooled leather. According to Peter Johnson the material of the original’s furniture was not bronze gilt as Oakeshott’s text stated, but filed and polished steel with fire gilding. Peter did not say so, but I don’t think this was that common a feature. I would theorize that it may once have appeared like fine gold. Certain shops that did this are known during the 15th century. More from Peter; “On one face of the pommel on the original is inserted a medallion showing the Madonna with the Child in her arms. On the other side is an empty hollow. Both sides originally had crystal discs fastened over the hollows. The back side must once have held a relic of some kind.” He later commented, “The sum of it all is the five petal flower that forms the rivet block, just like an alpine flower high above forceful mountainsides.”

The Munich’s grip is crafted to have the same volume and feel as the original, although it is more oval. The engraving, fire gilding, tooled leather, and ornamental jewels of the noble original have been omitted to keep the Munich at its current price point. Obviously Peter did not have the heart to strip the flower from the rivet block though. According to Peter, the Munich has exactly the same blade as the museum piece to within fractions of a millimeter and identical handling characteristics.

Some other manufacturers have also produced “interpretations” of the original sword in the Bayerisches museum. Some key dimensions such as blade length differ by as little as 3%, while other parameters such as weight have been changed by as much as 25%. I personally like the Munich and would not consider any alterations likely to enhance it.



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Derek Wassom




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Awesome! Thanks, Jared. Cool Is that the light brown grip?
Regards,
Derek Wassom
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is the "campaign worn" light brown grip.

I like the look of distressed or faded leather. Even some blacks eventually are abrasively worn off and replaced by hand oils to look like this if actually handled and used (periods of 50 years of heavy use or more such as a friends saddle scabbard for a rifle that I know of.) If planning to make your own leather covered scabbard, it is generally easy to blend some dyes to match.

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Derek Wassom




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I ordered the same and I'm glad I did. It looks great!
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Derek Wassom
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've moved this topic to the Historical Arms Talk forum, the approproate location for discussions about historical weapons and their recreations. Thank you.
Happy

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Julian Arellano





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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 9:53 am    Post subject: ...         Reply with quote

... So what's the the difference in the Munich and the Bayerisches sword of Christian fletcher? both swords are inspired in the one that's in the Bayerisches Museum, right? , Both swords are awesome and are a art work .. well a deadly piece of art , they are elegant and I feel the both swords are more for a royal man than a warrior .
But .. what's the difference ? the construction ? , the lenght of the pommel ? or ?? ::...

I think myself ...I can imagine a warrior in a battle with this sword , I mean not for the sword per se , is because the original one has many details in the guard and inscription in the pommel , that make it exceptional , hehehe , what can i say am in love of this sword. heheh !



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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: ...         Reply with quote

Julian Arellano wrote:
... So what's the the difference in the Munich and the Bayerisches sword of Christian fletcher? both swords are inspired in the one that's in the Bayerisches Museum, right? , Both swords are awesome and are a art work .. well a deadly piece of art , they are elegant and I feel the both swords are more for a royal man than a warrior .
But .. what's the difference ? the construction ? , the lenght of the pommel ? or ?? ::...

I think myself ...I can imagine a warrior in a battle with this sword , I mean not for the sword per se , is because the original one has many details in the guard and inscription in the pommel , that make it exceptional , hehehe , what can i say am in love of this sword. heheh !


A friend of mine just got the Munich, and I own the Christian Fletcher/ATrim sword you're referring to. This weekend I'll probably get a chance to visit him and I can tell you more at the time. That said, I can definately tell you a few things even without having handled the Munich yet.

The Albion is actually based on the specifications of the Bayerisches sword which Peter Johnson has studied and documented. The Christian Fletcher piece takes a preexisting Angus Trim blade (which was not based on the same sword) and is dressed up to be inspired by the original, but is not actually a copy. Therefore they will not handle the same, nor will they have the same measurments. The Christian Fletcher one also does not have a historically accurate pommel block, in that it has a hex key pommel nut that can be unscrewed, whereas the Albion piece has a focus on historical accuracy.

I love the Christian Fletcher/ ATrim piece. But it is really a loose interpretation of the original sword, not a reproduction.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Sam Barris




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: ...         Reply with quote

Julian Arellano wrote:
... So what's the the difference in the Munich and the Bayerisches sword of Christian fletcher? both swords are inspired in the one that's in the Bayerisches Museum, right? , Both swords are awesome and are a art work .. well a deadly piece of art , they are elegant and I feel the both swords are more for a royal man than a warrior .
But .. what's the difference ? the construction ? , the lenght of the pommel ? or ?? ::...

The Christian Fletcher version has an Angus Trim blade, which means it will feature a hex nut hilt construction as opposed to a peened tang. You can see it in the pictures on Christian's site. This makes it less historically accurate, but whether or not that bothers you is between you and the Sword Gods. The blade on Albion's is no doubt closer to the dimensions of the original weapon, thanks to Peter Johnsson's exhausing research (I get tired just reading about it), but Angus Trim's blades have a reputation for being high-performance weapons nevertheless. Again, it comes down to you and the Sword Gods. It looks like the hilt on the Christian Fletcher version is a bit more ornate and perhaps closer to the museum piece, but the Next Gen Munich isn't mean to be an exact copy; that'll be coming in the Museum Line. In short, I think they're both absolutely gorgeous, lethal weapons.

Julian Arellano wrote:
I think myself ...I can imagine a warrior in a battle with this sword , I mean not for the sword per se , is because the original one has many details in the guard and inscription in the pommel , that make it exceptional , hehehe , what can i say am in love of this sword. heheh !

I hear you, man. And the soonest I'll be home to see mine (assuming that it's finished by then) is July. All these pictures are not making my wait any easier... but I can't stop looking at them! Big Grin

EDIT: Argh! Bill beat me to it! Wink

Pax,
Sam Barris

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: ...         Reply with quote

Julian Arellano wrote:
... So what's the the difference in the Munich and the Bayerisches sword of Christian fletcher? both swords are inspired in the one that's in the Bayerisches Museum, right? , Both swords are awesome and are a art work .. well a deadly piece of art , they are elegant and I feel the both swords are more for a royal man than a warrior .
But .. what's the difference ? the construction ? , the lenght of the pommel ? or ?? ::

Just looking at the photos I can see a dozen differences. Considering dynamic properties, measurements, and other properties, these swords have even more variance not visible in a comparison of photos.

Sure, they're both relatively close in overall dimensions and relative proportions. They both have long grips, a wheel-shaped pommel, and an S-curved cross. But that's where the similarities end. This type of comparison is true for all swords and shows the complexity of what defines a sword. That's one of the neat things about this stuff: these tools have many, many properties that go beyond what one might find in an object not intended to be used as a dynamically-moving tool.

Just looking at the sword one can see the colors of the components are different, that the hilt furniture on one is blackened, the other bright. The grips are different in color and construction. One can see incised lines on the Albion where they do not exist on the other. One can see both an ecussion and pommel inlay on the CF, but not the Albion. The hilt components look to have different proportions to my eye. The grip shape, while similar, is different on each. I'm quite sure that the dynamic properties are not close to each other since each were developed in completely different ways. How could they be the same?

The blade geometry is likely quite different on each. A sword blade is defined by a complex set of tapers across three-dimensions. It isn't just a linear wedge. Two swords that do not share the same design specs are going to differ drastically in these measurements, and as a result, will give different dynamic properties when the sword is in motion or while it is impacting another object.

The construction of each hilt is quite different. I know how Albion does it. They discuss this on their site. I know how the CF sword was created. I had it here for awhile. Albion uses their Next Generation method of fixing components into place and then adding the grip in halves, covering it, etc. The CF sword is a compression-fit with a hex-nut assembly on the pommel.

They're both very neat swords in their own right and can be appreciated for their differences as much as for their similarities.

Hope this helps?

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Julian Arellano





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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: ...         Reply with quote

thanks for your reply .. it's really nice learn about this awesome swords . ... Big Grin
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Angus Trim




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: ...         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:


I love the Christian Fletcher/ ATrim piece. But it is really a loose interpretation of the original sword, not a reproduction.


Not even that close........ the hilt CF did might make it look a little like it, but its not close........ the intent wasn't there, it was a real loose "inspiration", not any attempt at interpreting it........

As Nathan says, the blade geometry is much different. They won't handle close either, the thicker at the base sword, the "Munich", will more than likely be quicker, and more rigid.......

Its why I like thicker stock now for longswords, but this thread is about the Munich.......

I think that when you handle the Munich, you'll agree that its worth every penny. No, I haven't handled one yet, and no, Howie hasn't bought me off, but I've made and handled a few longswords now, using the thicker stock, and doing the distal taper like you need to with the thicker stock, and comparing two swords of similar profile, one of .36 stock, the other of .25 stock, and both done as well as possible on the dynamic side {handling and performance}, and the thicker stock sword will have some real advantages handling, be more rigid, and be a surprisingly effective cutter....

In my opinion, the Munich will be worth every penny........... it won't for the "cheap", but it will definitely reward those willing to spend the extra long green......

And I still love the 1593....... but its a whole different ballgame from the Munich...........

swords are fun
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 8:06 pm    Post subject: Hmmm ...         Reply with quote

I had a 1561, I believe it was, done up by Christian Fletcher, and sold to me by Jason Elrod
a few years back. One of a few swords I've parted with that I wish I had kept, actually. Very
quick, very classy. Definitely reminds me of The Munich ... Beautiful sword, Jared, the grip
color is an excellent choice.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: ...         Reply with quote

Angus Trim wrote:
........ the intent wasn't there, it was a real loose "inspiration", not any attempt at interpreting it........

Its why I like thicker stock now for longswords, but this thread is about the Munich.......

And I still love the 1593....... but its a whole different ballgame from the Munich...........


I apologize if any of my remarks have offended or created inappropriate criticisms. I have tried to contain my remarks to things which I have handled first hand. Something I did want to get across is that the Munich is a "different sword" from any other that I am aware of. When I do notice mathematically very different physical measurements (weight, CoP or otherwise) I am unsure of the proper way to describe it. Even in the case of three blades of very similar stats, photographed together for this very reason in my post, there a lots of differences in how ones perception results when using them!

In test cutting, I love the A-Trims I have had the opportunity to cut with. The Munich is a much better cutter than its profile and my amateur efforts of describing the sneaky nature of its geometry will convey. Those who never experiment with "test thrusting" into substantial targets might not ever even relate to the stiffness aspect of it.

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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Munich is lovely!

I have not handle it myself but I have held one of Peters prototypes for it at the Albion/Östra Aros swärsmäns event in September! And as Mr. Trim said, the rigidity and control of this blade is awesome.

All of you who have one on order or already has got yours! Congratulations Big Grin !

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Angus Trim




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: ...         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
Angus Trim wrote:
........ the intent wasn't there, it was a real loose "inspiration", not any attempt at interpreting it........

Its why I like thicker stock now for longswords, but this thread is about the Munich.......

And I still love the 1593....... but its a whole different ballgame from the Munich...........


I apologize if any of my remarks have offended or created inappropriate criticisms. I have tried to contain my remarks to things which I have handled first hand. Something I did want to get across is that the Munich is a "different sword" from any other that I am aware of.


Hi Jared

I didn't enter into this thread because of any offense taken. I entered into it, because I feel the Munich is a very important sword........ and I'm not as into the aesthetic end of things as the functional end of things.....

"Longswords", separating the terminology a bit from "greatswords", or "warswords", had a great deal of variety, and the variety of which I'm going to speak now is of the thickness, the distal taper, and the "quality" of the distal taper. Before this sword, I can only think of a couple of custom pieces, and a couple of mine that really tried to do the "Longsword" thing starting this thick and doing the distal taper thing, to get the handling, that this sword should have..........

If an individual is into "handling" with a capital "H", then this sword may very well be worth the money. For me, if I was a collector, instead of a poor swordmaker, this sword would interest me a great deal. For the handling.......not so much for the aesthetics..........

I haven't really had the opportunity to discuss the handling of the thicker based longswords vs the thinner, but there is a difference..... if one is so inclined, a world of difference........

The "thickness and distal taper" thing can be over done. But there also seems to be a bit of a "nominal", if you will, where handling can be extremely quick, but the tracking can still be felt, and natural, and one can still "feel" the point. I think this should be in that "nominal" range, for the quallties of handling that I value........

swords are fun
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Edward Hitchens




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Congrats for acquiring a Munich, Jared! And thanks for posting your thoughts! I just might have to save up for a Munich of my own one day but for now, the Munich's price tag (which I'll refrain from disclosing here out of professional courtesy for Mr. Waddell) is a bit out of my spending range. Cry No doubt worth every penny!

Jared, have you (or any Munich owner) wielded it with one hand? A sword of these dimensions is clearly intended for two hands, but as I read its specs on Albion's webpage, its 50-ounce weight seems surprisingly light for its size (e.g. my A&A Black Prince is 8" shorter, yet weighs 60 ounces). Oh, and I love the grip color you chose. Big Grin

Wow, this is my 600th post! Eek!

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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Edward Hitchens wrote:


Jared, have you (or any Munich owner) wielded it with one hand? A sword of these dimensions is clearly intended for two hands, but as I read its specs on Albion's webpage, its 50-ounce weight seems surprisingly light for its size (e.g. my A&A Black Prince is 8" shorter, yet weighs 60 ounces). Oh, and I love the grip color you chose. Big Grin

Wow, this is my 600th post! Eek!


I have given a little try one handed. I am not good with any hand and a half or bigger type of grip as far as one handed technique. This one did not seem difficult to point in thrust or swing one handed. It really is just too much fun using two hands to not wield it that way!

I would like to point out that I was not the first to test cut with it at my home. My petite 14 year old daughter actually chopped 4 limbs (about 12 mm diameter each) off of a pine tree in a single very nice looking Oberhau. I intervened since this was not part of the landscaping plans....

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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 5:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Edward Hitchens wrote:
Jared, have you (or any Munich owner) wielded it with one hand? A sword of these dimensions is clearly intended for two hands, but as I read its specs on Albion's webpage, its 50-ounce weight seems surprisingly light for its size.

I went through Fiore's single-handed plays at 100% easily. The first time I handled this sword, I was sitting down in a reclining desk chair when it was handed to me. One handed, a tip disengage and forceful blow struck (Fiore's third play for the sword in one hand - no actual target) without moving from my "comfy spot" and I was instantly connected with this piece.
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Cornelius Engelhardt





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PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

High-res version of the picture above can be found here:

http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/cengelha/alb.../my_photos

Copyright be me. Wink
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