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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2007 12:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Korey J. Lavoie wrote:
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Quite probable for some kinds of early weapons made entirely of bronze, but the presence of a hilt (or other components) made from a different materials would have changed the equation somewhat. And, if I'm not mistaken, the earliest practical weapon of sword length that we know of already had a hilt of organic components.


Please tell me what Weapon that was.


I should have said the earliest bronze swords that I know of. These were mostly thrusting weapons, and many hoplologists suspect that the method of hilt attachment on some of them (with only several rivets instead of a full tang) is somewhat to weak too withstand the shock of a cut. This conclusion has been recently disputed, though, and I won't pretend to say which opinion is correct. I'll just upload a page from Oakeshott's classic Archaeology of Weapons--the three swords illustrated in the upper left are examples of the thrusting swords in question.


Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Basically I just mean that any polearm is used in a very fluid way and grip(s) can slide around to make using all parts of the weapon in defensive or attacking moves.

So, my point, which I may have made before, is that a mace would not be only used for simple bashing but would include less powerful but still useful techniques.


Totally agreed. Any skilled user of any knid of weapon would certainly have trained to use that weapon in a variety of situations, and his/her training would have included different ways of wielding the weapon in order to face different kinds of challenges. Maces, hammers, and other essentially blunt weapons included.


Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
Another huge problem with any hafted weapon, spear, axe, mace or hammer, is that when the momentum is lost your opponent can seize your weapon with an off hand. I do it all the time in sparring Happy


But if the wielder of the hafted weapon is clever enough to anticipate this move, he/she could answer with a grab in return, taking advantage of the fact that one of the enemy's hands is now locked to his/her weapon. This can easily lead into a nasty throw or joint-lock.

I'm speaking from experience because I've been on the receiving end of such joint-locks when I fought an axe-wielding friend with a sword. Of course, since I'm an aikidoka myself, it didn't take me long to pick up on the trick and use it myself when I find myself wielding a hafted weapon in a free-play session. ;P



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Oakeshott illustration of Bronze Age swords [ Download ]
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2007 1:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
Another huge problem with any hafted weapon, spear, axe, mace or hammer, is that when the momentum is lost your opponent can seize your weapon with an off hand. I do it all the time in sparring Happy


But if the wielder of the hafted weapon is clever enough to anticipate this move, he/she could answer with a grab in return, taking advantage of the fact that one of the enemy's hands is now locked to his/her weapon. This can easily lead into a nasty throw or joint-lock.

I'm speaking from experience because I've been on the receiving end of such joint-locks when I fought an axe-wielding friend with a sword. Of course, since I'm an aikidoka myself, it didn't take me long to pick up on the trick and use it myself when I find myself wielding a hafted weapon in a free-play session. ;P


Or, one could instantly let go of the polearm and close in with a rapidly drawn dagger while the opponent is distracted holding a mace in this case. One also has to assume that the opponent had a free hand in the first place ?

Many possibilities and possible outcomes: Grabbing the weapon can be a successful technique but can be countered. The final outcome depending on who is the best at reading the others moves and telegraphs the least and who has the most skill at dominating the flow and direction of any physical contact. ( The best at Aikido like sensitivity to the push and pull and creating a vacuum for the opponent to fall in ). I don't think there is one right answer: There are many answers/ results possible for every encounter. ( Disclaimer: From me more thought exercise than practical experience. Wink )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2007 2:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, precisely. To every technique there's a counter, and to every counter there's an answer. What matters isn't whether a move can be countered or not--the answer is, theoretically, always in the positive--but whether the fighter is aware of what he/she has to do and whether he/she is capable of executing it in a decisive manner.
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Jack Yang




Location: maryland
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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

lol, i like the idea of letting go and drawing a dagger. He would be like "wtf what am i doing with a hammer in my hand??"
WTF?! WTF?! WTF?!
But what I do when I grab someone else's weapon is to chop of as many fingers as i can get, lol. Since in a lock, your enemy's hands are the closest part of his body to you, you could just take advantage of that. =D
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,698

PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If your enemy's hands are unarmored. At such close ranges you'd be restricted to draw cuts, and that's not going to be very effective against a gauntlet or a well-padded mail mitten. You might still be able to pinch his/her fingers between the two weapons and hurt them somewhat, but you won't be taking them off permanently.
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P. Emerson Humphrey




Location: Oklahoma, U.S.A.
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Jul, 2014 9:08 am    Post subject: Impact weapons and Romans         Reply with quote

Romans in an emergency would probably use their tool as a weapon but they weren't fighting fully armored enemies. Even the most armored had quick stab targets like the face stomach/groin/inner thigh exposed. The closest thing I can think of is armor piercing weapons in their period. Like the Dacian falx ie. Rhomphiaia most likely, Dacian relatives were in Thrace and why differentiate a falx type if it isn't different? It was basically a polearm weapon and did force them to use better armor but not to start using the weapon, though it was possibly used in Byzantium it is unknown.. Aside from their own shields they were facing shields, if smaller mostly and I think it would be hard to incorporate into their established style. The adoption of a barbaric weapon that doesn't fit with line formation well would probably have been unpopular. I'd say if they had taken the rhomphaia on it could have been teamed with pila like velites or heavier pila and worked with the shield formation but would require higher troop numbers for support and cost more than their simple effective style. Though unlike most impact weapons this could deliver thrusting attacks so I'd say cost is the biggest factor because the rhomphaia has metal inside the handle and the metal could make four gladius and later two spatha. Also the user would need to be better armored, not to a gladiator level but enough to make it costly. I can imagine how they would armor for its use well enough to make it surprising they didn't adopt it, small shield strapped to the leading forearm, but they didn't adopt it. It would be a really cool unit in classic Roman period. I'm not sure of auxilia use but they wouldn't be romanized troops. The terminology placing the rhomphaia in Byzantium from written sources is suspect, though some of the arguments are weak there's enough to doubt written accounts meaning the weapon. That to me doesn't mean it definitely wasn't adopted given the proximity. It is slightly curved and can be sharpened either way so it can pierce and slash and stab or slash more efficiently and stab. It could cut limbs off and defeat armor. There's no evidence the Romans ever adopted it at any stage and it is the biggest question mark for me except the cost.
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

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PostPosted: Fri 25 Jul, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Impact Weapons         Reply with quote

Tom Fitzgerald wrote:
Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
Really interesting thread guys,

The use of war clubs may be far more widespread than you think. The Celts and Germans used all sorts of clubs, probably kind of like club-axes such as those you see in the Americas and Pacific Islands. For example consider this speech by Germanicus to his troops before the battle of Idistaviso:

"The Germans wear no breastplates or helmets. Even their shields are not reinforced with iron or leather, but are merely plaited wicker-work or flimsy painted boards. Spears, of a sort, are limited to their front rank.The rest only have clubs burnt at the end, or with short metal points. Physically they look formidable and are good for a short rush, but they cannot stand being hurt. They quit and run unashamedly, regardless of their commanders"

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:kiDlDAtQ...&gl=us

Interesting that he says the clubs were 'burnt at the end'. I'm not sure of that translation but I bet he really meant fire-hardened, which implies a sort of blade like shape.



This quote is familiar to me. I cannot help but wonder what "short metal points" means. Does it mean spiked all over like a morning star or furnished with something like an axehead or pick head. Admittedly if it was an axehead Germanicus would probably have called them axes but there is a kind of bronze age axe that looks like a whopping great club with a little metal point. I have included an example below.

I always assumed they just burnt them at the end bacause that was appropriate for a bunch of grubby barbarians who if they couldn't kill their well dressed Roman enemies could at least leave dirty black marks on their tunics Big Grin. But, you're probably right, they probably did fire-harden them.

Quote:
Weapons like this have been found all over continental Europe and in Ireland, including what look like wooden swords and axes. In fact something hard and flat with a sort of a blade like shape seems to be more common than the rounded or bulbous ended weapons. The kind of "baseball bat" shape we often think of when we hear the word 'club' seemed rarest of all. Many weapons had some kind of 'cutting' or breaking edge rather like a flanged mace later on.


I'd be very interested to see some indigenous European clubs. I can't recall seeing an original (except shillelaghs), which is not surprising given that they were made of perishable wood. Interestingly the baseball bat style and similarly simple shapes were quite common in Australian Aboriginal cultures, but they too had more axe like and sword like shapes. I remember seeing a couple from North Queensland (Tropical North Australia) that were like wooden longswords. They looked particularly sharp and pointy and would have been capable of producing effective lacerations in addition to the usual bone breaking.

Here are some Interesting bludgeons;

You could create a entire thread about the second second down. It's wierd looking and bewildering. It looks like out of fantasy RPG
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