Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > The movie 300: Save your money. Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next 
Author Message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 4,393

PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 12:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
One suggestion, that would get us off the film and all the way off topic stuff, would be to discuss the real battle, tactics, weapons: After all I think almost everything good or bad about the film has been said already.


Apologies if this has been brought up earlier in the thread -

I've heard that, despite the fame of Thermopylae, and the assertion that the Persians were significantly delayed because of it, the delay didn't make much difference, and the battle didn't have that much effect on the campaign as a whole. Is that true?

And I want to find out more about Thespians at Thermopylae!
View user's profile Send private message
Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
I've heard that, despite the fame of Thermopylae, and the assertion that the Persians were significantly delayed because of it, the delay didn't make much difference, and the battle didn't have that much effect on the campaign as a whole. Is that true?

And I want to find out more about Thespians at Thermopylae!


Depends. The delay was really only a few days. But the Mediterranean is a small place and a lot of troops can move from one side of Greece to another in a few days. The battles at Salamis and Platea were what really broke Xerxes. And Sparta had a good deal more than the three hundred warriors that died at Thermopylae. They got a big piece of the action at Platea, although Salamis was a naval battle and therefore mostly an Athenian thing.

If memory serves, there were seven hundred Thespian hoplites that fought with the Spartans. They were the rearguard on the last day and died in battle holding off the troops Xerxes had sent through the mountains. The details are hazy though. I haven't read Herotodus in a long time.

If my Thucydides is still fresh, the Spartans razed their city during the Peloponnesian War, despite their heroic doomed stand together. Not very sentimental, those Spartans. Betcha they won't show that in a comic book! Laughing Out Loud

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Thomas Watt




Location: Metrowest Boston
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
The Spartans are clean living heterosexuals who love their wives;

As a historical inaccuracy, that one is a howler... if my Ancient Greek seminar hasn't totally been lost to memory, I seem to recall that Spartan males who actually showed affection for their wives (instead of their male companions) were ribbed mercilessly.

Quote:
6) A heavy infantry culture fighting a mostly light infantry / archery culture I believe ? But did the Persians at this time have some heavier units that could in theory stand toe to toe with the Greeks ?

I believe the role of Persian heavy infantry was assigned to the "immortals"... however as they discovered with a shock, they were no match toe to toe with the heavily-armed and armored Spartans (and Greek warriors in general).

As to the battles/campaign itself, it seems that the Greeks managed to find conditions and circumstances in which they could exploit their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Perhaps the Persians could have chosen a better ground to fight had they had better scouting/intel? Or perhaps the sheer size/weight of their army led to overconfidence?

As an aside, I too, appreciate the general gentle tone of this discussion, and have to commend the myArmoury Team for their efforts in keeping this board civil.
Exclamation

Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
View user's profile Send private message
Hugh Fuller




Location: Virginia
Joined: 01 Oct 2003

Posts: 256

PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I understand it, what the deay at Thermopylae gave the Greeks was time for the Athenians to evacuate their sity and get the population over to the island of Salamis along with the population of a number of other Greek cities in the Persian line of march. This is part of what led the others to adopt Themistocles' strategy of fighting in the Straits of Salamis and, believe me on this, the Athenian navy was not up to the task alone. Of some 310 ships on the Greek side, Athens provided 150 or thereabouts against over 500 ships in the Persian fleet. The advantage of the site of the Straits of Salamis was that the tight confines limited the advantage that the Persian numerical superiority had.
Hugh
Still trying to walk in the Light
Please see 1 John 1:5
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Thomas Watt"]
Quote:
As to the battles/campaign itself, it seems that the Greeks managed to find conditions and circumstances in which they could exploit their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Perhaps the Persians could have chosen a better ground to fight had they had better scouting/intel? Or perhaps the sheer size/weight of their army led to overconfidence?


Well the Persians had managed to overcome the Ionian Greek States. I believe they had also forced the Greek force out of a similar position somewhat to the north in a flanking move not long before this battle. I suspect Persia had good reason to believe it could overcome heavy infantry with a combined arms approach, and they eventually did in this engagement. The only question is the wisdom of how they did it in this case. Was there a better way and could they have really guessed the engagement would turn into what it did?

After all Persia won the battle, and soon took Athens.

Salamis and its impact on the ability to supply the force deployed was probably much more critical. With an intact navy the Persians still might have made the Spartan stand into a footnote in their history.

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Eging




Location: Ashburn, VA
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An interesting note, more Greeks fought on behalf of the Persians than for the Greek alliance. The Greek alliance bedevilled the Persians. Something to be said about fighting for homeland, whether Sparta and it's subject territories - or Athens and it's allies and subjected territories...

Cool

M. Eging
Hamilton, VA
www.silverhornechoes.com
Member of the HEMA Alliance
http://hemaalliance.com/
View user's profile Send private message
David Welch




Location: Knoxville TN
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Reading list: 14 books

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I was just happy to see a depiction of the spear used as a primary weapon.


I was thrilled to see shields used primarily as offensive weapons, and defensive... well... shields, second.

"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand."
Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 819

PostPosted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
One suggestion, that would get us off the film and all the way off topic stuff, would be to discuss the real battle, tactics, weapons: After all I think almost everything good or bad about the film has been said already.


Excellent point, Jean. And I apologize if my earlier post was too brash or off-topic. In light of Jean's suggestion, I'm still undecided if I really like the design of the Spartans' swords. The Spartan sword in this movie looked like a cross between a pirate cutlass and a gladius Exclamation . I did like how the Spartans considered their spears as their primary weapons and their swords secondary -- which I believe was historically correct Question . Back then, the Persian army was renowed for its archers just like the Welsh were during the Medieval period. -Ted

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
View user's profile Send private message
Trent Stevens





Joined: 09 Dec 2006

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: lol         Reply with quote

HAHAHAHAH im talkin to my sis right now about how much she hated the movie! and we are arguing because i loved the it!!!! GO SEE 300!!!!

it was based on a comic book so dont base it on reality! allthough i though that the Samuri Ninja Orcs Eek! were kinda funny!!

great stuff.....made me wanna hit the gym though.

Trenty!
View user's profile Send private message
Tim M.





Joined: 21 Jan 2007

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was just very disappointed that none of the other groups of the Greek army are even present in the movie and I find that as a great dishonor to them who fought just as bravely as the Spartans. That and giving the Spartans superman like abilities downplayed the true braviery and skill of the Greeks.
View user's profile Send private message
Josh Aldous




Location: Wisconsin
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Watt wrote:
Quote:
The Spartans are clean living heterosexuals who love their wives;

As a historical inaccuracy, that one is a howler... if my Ancient Greek seminar hasn't totally been lost to memory, I seem to recall that Spartan males who actually showed affection for their wives (instead of their male companions) were ribbed mercilessly.


Just because it's come up a couple of times, maybe I can help with this one. Leonidas's reference to Athenians as "boy lovers" is right from the graphic novel, and it caused some controversy when the book was published. The defense at the time raised an important distinction: Leonidas doesn't take issue with the idea of homosexuality, per se, but he specifies that the Athenians are *boy* lovers. . .as in little boys, so he's accusing them of pedophilia.
View user's profile Send private message
Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 4:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Josh Aldous wrote:
Just because it's come up a couple of times, maybe I can help with this one. Leonidas's reference to Athenians as "boy lovers" is right from the graphic novel, and it caused some controversy when the book was published. The defense at the time raised an important distinction: Leonidas doesn't take issue with the idea of homosexuality, per se, but he specifies that the Athenians are *boy* lovers. . .as in little boys, so he's accusing them of pedophilia.

"Boy loving" was all over the Hellenic world and beyond, so Frank Miller isn’t off the hook. Specifically, a man of a certain social standing was expected to take the son of a close friend under his wing and act as foster parent and mentor. They didn’t see it as either harmful or immoral. A version of this tradition survived in Medieval times as well, but usually without the sex. The bisexual aspects of Greek culture are almost universally misunderstood, misrepresented and misused—particularly by those who twist historical facts to justify their own political aims and hormonal impulses—but also by storytellers who present only a fragment of reality to justify their fictitious characterization of dead men. I'm not saying that relationships between grown men (and women) didn't happen, just that this peculiar form of mentorship extended beyond the borders of Attica.

The reason we hear so much more about the Athenians is simply because they wrote most of the books, not because they were the only ones with habits we modern types might find unsavory.

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Brian Ellis Cassity




Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
Joined: 08 Nov 2006

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Popular movie in Greece, apparently         Reply with quote

Because it came up in this thread as a question of how the Greeks might feel about this movie, it seems the jury is beginning to come in.

"Greek audiences showed notable fervor for Zack Snyder's violent adaptation of Frank Miller's graphic novel about the battle of Thermopylae. "300" set a record for best Greek opening with $3.1 million at 138, topping last summer's "Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest" even though the latter opened with 100 more prints."

From http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117961266.h...3&cs=1

I do nothing social or public without including my wife and little boy, so I won't be going to see it at the theaters, but I definitely plan to add this movie to my collection of DVDs. From what I've seen, it looks absolutely gorgeous. I can't think of a more appropriate word to describe the scenes I've been able to watch.

Brian
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen S. Han




Location: Westminster, CA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 211

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim M. wrote:
I was just very disappointed that none of the other groups of the Greek army are even present in the movie and I find that as a great dishonor to them who fought just as bravely as the Spartans. That and giving the Spartans superman like abilities downplayed the true braviery and skill of the Greeks.



***SPOILER ALERT***













Not sure if this is a valid criticism of the movie. Have you seen the movie? Did you not recognize the narrative structure? Note that it is not told in a "neutral" point of view. It is told by a surviving Spartan (who btw was NOT at the final battle) who is first addressing the Spartan Council, and later the Spartan army at Platea. It also explains why the role of other Greeks are minimized in the movie, and the Spartans are attributed with superhuman abilities. Recognizing the perspective is important in understanding the tone of the narrative.

*Of course* it is going to be skewed in perspective in favor of the Spartans. While the movie itself is not propaganda, the narrative structure within the movie is.
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, there is a scene where some allies show up and complain that the Spartan are only 300 and they do participate in the fight and story in a minor way. ( More minor than historically correct I believe, but there is mention of allies ).

Forgetting a bit about all the over the top and inaccurate Persian costume / weapons etc ..... ( Which are more incorrect than the Greek stuff ) I think the story itself seems reasonably accurate ?

I have the old " The 300 Spartans " of 1961 with Richard Egan and the story line of this much older film is not that far from this movie. ( No giant War Rhino thought Razz ) Even the line about " if you want our spears come and get them ! " )

So, unless I go back to some of my books and refresh my memory, it seems at least superficially the " core " of the story is respected if not the outside " form ". Confused .

So any opinions about where they get the story right and where they get it wrong ?

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder why the Persians decided to attack the Greek army in such a strong position and allowed the Greek naval covering force to slip away unmolested. Obviously the Persians knew they could take the pass, and they were right about it. Still, from what I've stumbled across recently it appears that the Athenian navy alone trying to prevent an amphibious movement, something the Persians had done before to bypass a Greek position.

Damage that naval asset enough and maybe Salamis, which really did hurt the Persians, plays differently. Its interesting to me that the Persians seemed to be very aware of combined arms and naval movement, but not some much here.

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message
Brian Ellis Cassity




Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
Joined: 08 Nov 2006

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
So any opinions about where they get the story right and where they get it wrong ?


It happens that I just this moment read a kind of review/essay of the movie that is quite good and very thoughtful. I was thinking that it touches upon just about every topic, whether critical or supportive, that I've read in this thread. It's worth reading entirely (it's 2 pages long).

http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Arti...3vbqws.asp

Brian
View user's profile Send private message
Gene Green





Joined: 13 Mar 2007

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I may be speaking out of a wrong end here Worried , but I remember reading somewhere that the entire battle was pretty useless form Greek point of view. They were already making plans to collect a large army and meet the invading Persians on the plains. The Leonidas' army had only stopped the Persians for three days, not really buying a great amount of time. The king was largely a ceremonial figure, the real decision makers in Sparta didn't really want to let Leonidas go and fight a battle that didn't fit in the overall warplan, and the only reason it happened was because the Oracle at Delphi said that a Spartan king must sacrifice himself in the battle at Thermopylae (sp) for Greeks to win the war.

.
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas Watt




Location: Metrowest Boston
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 1:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
I wonder why the Persians decided to attack the Greek army in such a strong position and allowed the Greek naval covering force to slip away unmolested. Obviously the Persians knew they could take the pass, and they were right about it. Still, from what I've stumbled across recently it appears that the Athenian navy alone trying to prevent an amphibious movement, something the Persians had done before to bypass a Greek position.

Damage that naval asset enough and maybe Salamis, which really did hurt the Persians, plays differently. Its interesting to me that the Persians seemed to be very aware of combined arms and naval movement, but not some much here.

If you can believe the History Channel storyline on this, the Persians sent a portion of their fleet (several hundred warships) around the channel to come up on the Greek fleet from behind, but that section of the Persian fleet was sunk in a storm... likewise, the Greeks defied all expectations and launched an attack late in the day against the numerically superior force.
After a couple of days' naval battle, the Greek fleet slipped away to fight another day.

Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Watt wrote:
Joe Fults wrote:
I wonder why the Persians decided to attack the Greek army in such a strong position and allowed the Greek naval covering force to slip away unmolested. Obviously the Persians knew they could take the pass, and they were right about it. Still, from what I've stumbled across recently it appears that the Athenian navy alone trying to prevent an amphibious movement, something the Persians had done before to bypass a Greek position.

Damage that naval asset enough and maybe Salamis, which really did hurt the Persians, plays differently. Its interesting to me that the Persians seemed to be very aware of combined arms and naval movement, but not some much here.

If you can believe the History Channel storyline on this, the Persians sent a portion of their fleet (several hundred warships) around the channel to come up on the Greek fleet from behind, but that section of the Persian fleet was sunk in a storm... likewise, the Greeks defied all expectations and launched an attack late in the day against the numerically superior force.
After a couple of days' naval battle, the Greek fleet slipped away to fight another day.


That would be a valid reason, but I wonder about the source a bit.

I find myself more curious.

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > The movie 300: Save your money.
Page 4 of 5 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum