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Jim Adelsen
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Movie was decent for me. Story wasn't as good as say a Gladiator or Braveheart, but was fun to go see with the guys. Wasn't expecting any accuracy and probably wouldn't know what was right for that period anyhow. One question I have is how do they keep from getting dizzy with all that spinning? haha
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another notable aspect of the movie's fighting--the emphasis is on disciplined formation. It shows/says repeatedly that each man in line protects the man on his left, and that if one man breaks the entire line can be compromised. Single combat is depicted as a last resort , from which the Spartans withdraw into formation as soon as possible. Only one Spartan breaks ranks and his actions are viewed (albeit sympathetically) as those of a madman. Even he returns to the disciplined formation. This is a far cry from the typical sword-and-sandal epic, which tends to focus on individual combat. There is a certain amount of that here, but it seems to be mainly for visual effect rather than to assert the hero's prowess. The "hero," in fact, is the entire Spartan unit, not the "Army of One" we see in most sword-and-sandal flicks.

Now, about those .25"-thick scorpion-shaped arrowheads....

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

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Sam Barris




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I haven’t seen the movie yet. I’m not sure that I even want to, and I’m a big ancient history geek. I am not, however, a strict purist about it.

My objections to this movie are twofold. First, much like with Troy, we’re dealing with a story that is quite literally at the heart of Western Civilization. Had the Persians overrun Greece at that point in history, everything that came out of Athens over the course of the next century would never have happened, or it would have come to us in an unrecognizably altered form. The battle at Thermopylae—as well as those at Salamis and Plataea—occurred at one of those rare pivotal points in history where everything might have gone differently for the Greeks and the societies that could be called their intellectual and cultural descendants. In the same way that Troy’s indiscretions show open disregard not only for the specific story that it shat upon, but also the entire corpus of Western literature that draws from that story, 300 makes a mockery out of one of the deepest roots of Western history. It doesn’t merely make alterations for the sake of good storytelling; it misses the whole point. I know it’s based on a comic book. I don’t care. These were real people who lived, bled and died—people who might have cared how their names were remembered—and I can’t help but think that they and their Polis were owed a more fitting tribute than this. If more people knew about history, I might feel less strongly about it, but as this is the only exposure that most people will ever get to the Persian Wars, I feel that the damage this movie does to people’s understanding of the past is actually rather severe. The argument of it’s only a movie carries no weight in a society where so few people read books.

My second objection is political. We are currently engaged in varying degrees of hostility—ranging from saber rattling to open warfare—with various groups of people who can and do claim descent from the Persian Empire. Some, like Iran, take this connection very seriously. I’ve personally heard Iranian warships correct people who refer to the Arabian Gulf over VHF radio, asking instead that they call it the Persian Gulf in the interests of proper geography. Two and a half millennia and an entirely new religion have not dimmed ancestral pride in Iran any more than they have in Greece. I’m not suggesting we alter history to be more politically correct, but altering history to show a deliberately warped view of the Persians is perhaps not the wisest course to take right now. I can’t help but think that this movie will translate into an IED at some point. Sad, but true. It’s exceedingly naïve to approach this subject matter in this manner and then claim to be making an apolitical action movie. Had they made Gates of Fire into a movie instead, the reception would be totally different.

This movie is no doubt visually spectacular. That’s not enough for me. Perhaps I'll feel differently when I see it, but I know enough about both the author and the director to strongly doubt it.

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Barris wrote:
The argument of it’s only a movie carries no weight in a society where so few people read books.

My second objection is political. We are currently engaged in varying degrees of hostility—ranging from saber rattling to open warfare—with various groups of people who can and do claim descent from the Persian Empire.


I agree with this to a large extent, but with one caveat. In the age of the internet I suspect that this film, which I'm sure will be popular, will spur both a lot of interest, research and ultimately a great deal of debate about the actual historical events this is based on. I bet the Wikipedia pages on Themopolae and Plataea are already warming up. Even among the most ardent 'nationalists', the anti- Athenian bias in this film is certainly going to be challenged, and some of the holes in the sympathetic portrayal of the Spartans you could drive a truck through. (I can't grasp why in this culture, if we like an historical people, we always seem to have to change them into our own ideal image of a 'good guy' according to our own current values .. isn't it enough for them to be brave and deadly do they have to also uphold Truth Justice and the American Way'?) This may lead to people wondering how accurate the portrayal of the Persians were and actually looking into it.

We live in a time where the tawdry and shallow are vastly popular, but historical shows are very popular too, and are gradually improving in quality IMHO.

J

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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hope we can limit the discussion to site-appropriate aspects of the movie--arms, armour, tactics, historical background, etc. The world is blowing up quite well without our assistance.
-Sean

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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

3.3 to 1 versus 4.3 to 1. Hmm. Obviously your point is taken, but a job as a bookie would not be the best option Wink

Peter[/quote]

I am a banker, not a bookie. Speaking in very general terms. Of course, 3.3 to 1 or 4.3 to 1 is all the same when a Scot is fighting Englishmen.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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A. J. Ratelle




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's my two cents . . .

Firstly, Frank Miller is a comic book artist, known for extremely stylized, exaggerated portrayals of people and events. He made his mark by turning Batman from a typical campy, "superhero" into a darker, more complex character. Similarly with the [/i]Sin City series, he utilizes very exaggerated, intense artwork to tell very extreme stories of life, death, love, lust, etc. He is an artist who draws out extremes to create a kind of "heightened reality" as one could call it in order to relate a certain (and usually very harsh) moral principal. In his retelling of 300 he does just that. He portrays not the events as they would have actually occurred, but in a very exaggerated way. He is not alone in this method. Throughout the history of storytelling, things have been exaggerated in order to portray heroism, glory, honor, and sacrifice. Miller is simply following the style of the writers of Beowulf, the Iliad, the Oddyssey, and virtually every other 'legend' and 'saga' one has heard of. In doing so, he gives the story a kind of timelessness. By taking the story out of its historical context wherein there exist the confines of hundreds of related names, people, places, and events, he lends a kind of immortality to the tale that can be understood by anyone. Even the director of the film version, Zack Snyder, openly admits that the goal of making the film was not to give a 100% accurate account down to the minutest detail on every arrowhead, but to relate an epic story of heroism. Frank Miller is not a historian, but storyteller. He will not give you "a detailed account of the Battle of Thermopylae that occurred on such and such date at such and such time for such and such reason," but instead he will tell you the tale of "Leonidas and his brave 300." If you want an accurate report of such events, to hell with Miller and pick up Herodotus.
In my mind, the real beauty (and yes, I say beauty) of the book and the film is its portrayal of the greatest standard, that is, complete self sacrifice. The film is a flawed film to be sure, and its exaggerated style and graphic scenes are not for everyone. However, at its heart is what I would call the highest ideal. In a society in which strength, ruthlessness, and military efficiency is valued above all else, a king and his men face death out of a desire to serve their country. Granted, there are those mentioned who possess a kind of suicidal, 'Kamikaze' mentality or those who go to their deaths out of hatred or bitterness, but those elements do not quite reach the crux of the story. For me, the moment that defines what the very essence of the tale is all about is the scene where Leonidas stands on the field invoking the name of his wife. We find that the king of such a harsh, militaristic society as ancient Sparta gives his life not just for glory or fame, but for love of his country and his wife. Amongst all its brutality,
300 is a story that communicates one of the deepest, most profound morals ever: to give everything out of love. For me, anyway, that is much for meaningful than whether the type of armor portrayed is accurate.
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By the way, 300 offers one of the best cast credits in the history of film:

"Spartan Baby Inspector"

How long before we see that on t-shirt?

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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David Martin




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, said, Sam Barris.

A few brief notes: First, I understand that 300 was based upon a graphic novel. My concern is that the people and places were real. My personal thoughts on this are that if a movie isn't going to at least attempt to present historical information in a factual manner that it should completely remove historical references from the film. Honestly, would the movie 300 have been less appealing if it had been described as a battle between the Zazuites and the Hootietooties at East Dingledork? What did the besmirching of history add to the film?

This doesn't just apply to the memory of the Greeks. The Persians who fought at Thermopylae must have been brave indeed. Can you imagine having to charge a phalanx of heavily armored and armed top-notch Spartan warriors while you're wearing minimal armor and having to climb over the bodies of your companions? Portraying the Persians as inhuman monsters doesn't do them justice.

*** Soapbox Alert ***

In sum, just because these people lived in 480 B.C. doesn't mean that the accurate portrayal of their lives should be any less important than their modern counterparts. That they can't sue for libel shouldn't be the determining factor in these decisions.

*** Spoiler Alert ***

The other issues I have with the film were the logical inconsistencies. Leonidas lectures Ephialtes about the need to stand fast in a phalanx, but then most of the fighting displayed was more free-form disco-style. Queen Gorgo gives herself to Theron for his support, knowing that he's a devious snake and can't be trusted. The Captain's son, who demonstrates his prowess as a mightly warrior, gets killed by a lone horseman after the fighting is over, standing perfectly still while the horseman approaches from some distance away. The Spartans fight like demons throughout the film, until the last battle, in which they all die within minutes, apparently having lost all of their previous skill.

"When war-gods meet to match their might,
who can tell the bravest born?
Many a hero never made a hole
in another man's breast."

- Sigurd, The Lay of Fafnir
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Michael Mercier




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't have a problem with it being a fantasy movie, although I probably wont see it. What my problem is is that there are small bits of "historical" like stuff and the misinformed public tends to think this is how it was. When some of us try to inform and educate the public through demonstrations and talks we take 5 steps forward by giving them some accurate information. But, movies like this drive us 10 steps backwards and we need to re-inform people that "....yada yada yada, it's just a movie".

I think movies that have a small amount of psudo-historic information need to have a disclaimer! Laughing Out Loud

Mike
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Stephen S. Han




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Barris wrote:
I haven’t seen the movie yet. I’m not sure that I even want to, and I’m a big ancient history geek. I am not, however, a strict purist about it.

My objections to this movie are twofold. First, much like with Troy, we’re dealing with a story that is quite literally at the heart of Western Civilization. Had the Persians overrun Greece at that point in history, everything that came out of Athens over the course of the next century would never have happened, or it would have come to us in an unrecognizably altered form. The battle at Thermopylae—as well as those at Salamis and Plataea—occurred at one of those rare pivotal points in history where everything might have gone differently for the Greeks and the societies that could be called their intellectual and cultural descendants. In the same way that Troy’s indiscretions show open disregard not only for the specific story that it shat upon, but also the entire corpus of Western literature that draws from that story, 300 makes a mockery out of one of the deepest roots of Western history. It doesn’t merely make alterations for the sake of good storytelling; it misses the whole point. I know it’s based on a comic book. I don’t care. These were real people who lived, bled and died—people who might have cared how their names were remembered—and I can’t help but think that they and their Polis were owed a more fitting tribute than this. If more people knew about history, I might feel less strongly about it, but as this is the only exposure that most people will ever get to the Persian Wars, I feel that the damage this movie does to people’s understanding of the past is actually rather severe. The argument of it’s only a movie carries no weight in a society where so few people read books.

My second objection is political. We are currently engaged in varying degrees of hostility—ranging from saber rattling to open warfare—with various groups of people who can and do claim descent from the Persian Empire. Some, like Iran, take this connection very seriously. I’ve personally heard Iranian warships correct people who refer to the Arabian Gulf over VHF radio, asking instead that they call it the Persian Gulf in the interests of proper geography. Two and a half millennia and an entirely new religion have not dimmed ancestral pride in Iran any more than they have in Greece. I’m not suggesting we alter history to be more politically correct, but altering history to show a deliberately warped view of the Persians is perhaps not the wisest course to take right now. I can’t help but think that this movie will translate into an IED at some point. Sad, but true. It’s exceedingly naïve to approach this subject matter in this manner and then claim to be making an apolitical action movie. Had they made Gates of Fire into a movie instead, the reception would be totally different.

This movie is no doubt visually spectacular. That’s not enough for me. Perhaps I'll feel differently when I see it, but I know enough about both the author and the director to strongly doubt it.



Sam,

I think your objection is somewhat misplaced. I do in fact say, "it's only a movie." Not sure who you hang out with, but my friends NEVER take something from a movie and characterize it as historical fact. Oh sure, they know that I'm a history geek, so they question me about what they saw in the movie, but by and large they are intelligent enough to know that the movies are make believe.

My second observation regarding your first point it: so what if a small ignorant segment of society look at the movie 300 and think it's historical fact. And by the way, I defy anyone to actually find someone who will seriously make that claim. While Thermapylae and Salamis and Platea were certainly significant historical events, you will be hard pressed to find the average person who is busy making a living taking more than 5 minutes to reflect on it. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Those of us who are more comfortable immersing ourselves in what happened in the past tend to place undue amount of significance to the historical events without juxtiposing with perspective based on present realities.

I sense a bit of eliticism here. You sound like you're of the opinion that the "unwashed masses" out there are brainless automatons who simply accept any "sword and sandals" flick as historical fact. I don't think this is the case.

I have less issues with your second point which is the current geo-political concerns. In fact, I just got done reading Iran's objection to the movie regarding the very subject. However, do you not see the irony in the reaction by the Iranian government as compared to yours? As we point fingers at other fanatics, shall we not look inward and see where our own fanaticisms lie?

At the end of the day, the movie was never billed as a historical docudrama. It is, as others so eloquently pointed out, an adaptation of a comic book which was a fantasy based loosely on a historical event. I disagree with you that this movie would have done any damage to people's understanding of the past. So far, what I have personally experienced is that it enhanced people's understanding of the past. As I said before, people have come to me to discuss the movie, and it's historical reference, and I had the opportunity to pontificate on the matter, which led to their better understanding of the actual historical events.

I enjoyed it on my first viewing and intend to see it again in the theatres. I'll probably buy the DVD when it comes out.
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Thomas Watt




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
By the way, 300 offers one of the best cast credits in the history of film:

"Spartan Baby Inspector"

How long before we see that on t-shirt?

I like that... hmmm... I'll have to work on some graphics for that.

Victor Davis Hanson, classical historian, wrote an interesting piece concerning the movie. I think he gets right to the heart of why Thermopylae moves so many people emotionally...

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson101106.html

"almost immediately, contemporary Greeks saw Thermopylae as a critical moral and culture lesson. In universal terms, a small, free people had willingly outfought huge numbers of imperial subjects who advanced under the lash. More specifically, the Western idea that soldiers themselves decide where, how, and against whom they will fight was contrasted against the Eastern notion of despotism and monarchy — freedom proving the stronger idea as the more courageous fighting "

btw, the battle of Salamis came later (after the pass at Thermopylae had already fallen and Athens had been sacked).

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Watt wrote:
In universal terms, a small, free people had willingly outfought huge numbers of imperial subjects who advanced under the lash.


Another interesting aspect of this is that it's another example of how ancient events are reinterpreted with modern sensibilities. "A small free people", who themselves existed by being supported by a subjugated slave population, the helots.
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of my business partners expressed an interest in the film last week, based on advertisements alone. When I told him it was based on an actual battle, he learned something new. We spent a half hour going through the lives of Darius, Xerxes, Leonidas, and Themistocles, with a mention of Esther and Purim thrown in. He learned a lot as a result of this film, without ever having to see it.

The reviews are treating it as some kind of political statement, with unfavorable reviews suggesting that people who like it must be either Nazis or Republicans. Sometimes a movie is just a movie.

The R rating may keep too many truly impressionable youth from seeing it until it is released on DVD. The rest of us can see it for a sort of parody of itself, with the wrong weapons and gear for the era and numerous historical errors. But I rated it highly as a piece of entertainment anyway, because it achieved what it set out to achieve. If another ten million people find out that the battle of Thermopylae happened, and that many of the later Roman and European ideas of military virtue can be traced back to the Spartans, then historical enlightenment will be an unintended byproduct.
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Thomas Watt wrote:
In universal terms, a small, free people had willingly outfought huge numbers of imperial subjects who advanced under the lash.


Another interesting aspect of this is that it's another example of how ancient events are reinterpreted with modern sensibilities. "A small free people", who themselves existed by being supported by a subjugated slave population, the helots.

True.
Nice thought there... since they were in no way even free "people" in the sense that we think of that describing a populace...
but it does seem that the results of the battle caused the Greeks to begin to think of themselves differently... prior to that they were Spartans, Athenians, Thebans, etc.
It seems to have helped form a concept of being Greek as being a people.

It's hard, I agree, even for scholars to see history untrammeled by their own culture and values.

Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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Hugh Fuller




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To those who say that "300" is "only a movie" and that "nobody believes a movie anyway" I will say but two words: Braveheart and Gladiator.
Hugh
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Edward Hitchens




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: The movie 300: Save your money.         Reply with quote

David Martin wrote:
I Without going into spoilers, my primary gripes were related to historical accuracy, or more appropriately put, the lack thereof. Apparently Hollywood didn’t feel that showing a phalanx in action would satisfy viewers, so they spiced things up with fantastical creatures, disco swordplay, and gratuitous gore with a nearly complete disregard for historical weapons and armor.

To those who who will contend that a movie should first be entertaining,with historial accuracy a secondary (or tertiary) concern, I will offer that Hollywood could just as easily set this script in a fantasy world (Actually, that's precisely what they did! Just like in the Lord of the Rings movies. -Ted). There was no need to distort history, or give less than appropriate homage to the brave Greeks and Persians who gave their lives in these battles.


Oh, Lord, here we go again.

I'm probably gonna get some flak for this, but the film was NOT based on historical events or places per se -- it was based off of a graphic novel which is not unlike a comic book. It is not the job -- or even the obligation -- of Hollywood filmmakers to be loyal to history. Their job is to make a movie for the benefit of entertainment. The idea is to leave your brain in your car and just have a good time. And that's exactly what I did when I saw 300, which in my opinion was awesome awesome awesome!

And because it's not Hollywood's job to by loyal to history, I don't hold anything against them when they portray historical inaccuracies. Now, if I'm watching a documentary on, say, the History Channel or Nat'l Geographic, I will expect the best accuracy possible (even then, nothing is guaranteed to be correct because there are many things that we simply don't know due to lack of records. Some of the world's best and brightest scholars have admitted to making 'educated guesses' on some things, even Oakeshott).

There's a fine line between a director who wants to educate his/her audience with a documentary, and one who wants to entertain his/her audience with a fictional story. In this case (the movie '300'), it's definitely the latter because the film isn't based off of history or a documentary -- it's based off a book.

And on that note, I think I'll watch my 'Casino Royale' DVD. Wink -Ted

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I hope we can limit the discussion to site-appropriate aspects of the movie--arms, armour, tactics, historical background, etc. The world is blowing up quite well without our assistance.


This is not only good advice, I'll call it an instruction that needs to be followed. More anti-Hollywood rants are not needed nor are discussions of politics. There are other sites that are more appropriate for that.

Happy

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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 5:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In terms of the portrayal of fighting men and their experiences (trying to touch on the basis of our beloved forum), people have been turning to fictionalized portrayals for centuries. From Mesopotamia to Egypt and Greece, right through Shakespeare, we have fictionalized and made relevant our heroes. Film is just another medium (and the lighting is sometimes better than a campfire). I see 300 as part of a grand tradition of story telling. Entertainment and fictionalization that makes the 300 ours (with all the inaccuracies and bumps and fantastical scenes). But, just to bring this back, my son, who never picked up a book on Sparta, saw a book I had just started on Spartan lectures after he saw the 300. He picked it up and started to read it! I have had books on Sparta and the Greeks on my shelf for years and now it is relevant to him.

Heroic story telling is part of our martial tradition. Frank Miller's graphic novel is incredible (I love the textures and shading), the movie is a good sword and sandals movie (visuals lots of fun, script okay). But movie makers are story tellers and they get paid (as I am learning in my own script writing adventure, which may make it to a post here one day) to entertain enough people that studios will continue to make their movies. Shakespeare was in the same boat!

Another two cents and it will get you a few kernals of popcorn... Cool

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 5:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When movie makers publicize a film as being accurate and "like it was" yet then stray far from the facts so that "the facts don't get in the way of the truth", I find that irritating and insulting on certain levels. However, when a film maker states explicitly that their production isn't based on history it's okay with me. I would much rather see Gates of Fire made into a movie (which seesm to be perpetually in some stage of production) but this one does look like an interesting exercise in style. I found the adaption of Millers Sin City technically interesting and inovative in that sense, but otherwise completely without merit. While I'm continually underwhelmed by comic books/graphic novels I do find this one intriguing as a form of abstract and stylistic art. Both of my sons are obsessed with the things so I hear about every latest development and I get dragged to every movie adaption that comes out. At least they compensate for their picture-book fixation by also being voracious readers so it evens out. I swear though, I'll scream if I have to put up with another movie about a guy wearing a costume and panties on the outside of his spandex. On the other hand, I'm a grown man who dresses in weird stuff and plays with swords so who am I to talk. Big Grin
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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > The movie 300: Save your money.
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