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Zach Gordon
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 Posted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Albion style grip |
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Hi,
I saw a picture of a sword in another topic that had a grip just like the ones Albion does and it got me wondering. What historical examples are there of the classic string over leather albion grips. I'd love to see pictures anyone has!!!
Thanx
Z
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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String over leather? Albion Next Generation Grips are simply leather over wood. They wrap cording over the grip while its glue is drying. This not only binds the leather wrap to the wood but also creates the visual pattern of the wound cording and makes it appear that there is a cord underwrap. Many of their Museum Line swords have the cord underwrap, which is more expensive to do because they have to take care to wrap the cord around the grip core, cover the core with glue and leather, then wrap it again with the temporary cord to bind everything together.
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Sword form the Cluny Museum
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Zach Gordon
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, I know the string isn't left on... I just meant glued on leather grips with string impressions like the albion next gen.s
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Zach Gordon wrote: | | Oh yeah, I know the string isn't left on... I just meant glued on leather grips with string impressions like the albion next gen.s |
Most (probably all) historical grips with that pattern actually have cord underneath the leather that creates the impression. Albion's NG grips are a shortcut. They use a cord overwrap to create the look of a cord underwrap.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Zach Gordon wrote: | | Oh yeah, I know the string isn't left on... I just meant glued on leather grips with string impressions like the albion next gen.s |
Most (probably all) historical grips with that pattern actually have cord underneath the leather that creates the impression. Albion's NG grips are a shortcut. They use a cord overwrap to create the look of a cord underwrap. |
Chad, that is simply not true.
There are many examples of grips with only leather over wood that has cord impression. I have personally documented quite a few.
In those cases where you have embossed decoration it is also more or less standard to have the leather directly over the wood. Risers are built with cord or leather thongs regardless if cord is or is not used under the leather.
The method used at Albion is not intended to mimic something else. it is not a short cut. It is what it is, looking just like some well preserved originals made by this method.
With only cord under leather you get a more subtle effect: the cord is visible as slightly irregular ridges. Depending on the thickness of the leather you will see traces of the cord pattern, or just the ridges caused by the binding.
EDIT:
attached an example (pretty famous one) of cord impression in leather with no cord binding underneath.
Plus and example of a grip with cord binding over wood, under leather but no cord over-wrap. Note the subtle effect of the slight ridging of the cord showing through the leather.
And below, an example of a deocrated leather grip. You can see the seam split apart from the leather shrinking over the centuries, letting us have a view of the wood core (4 part construction) with leather thongs as risers. Note the lack of cord under wrap.
And finally two examples of grips that probably feature spiral wound cord (wrapped with a gap between the turns) and an over wrap used to compress the leather in the gap between the turns below. This is the same method used to create the effect on the Svante Nilsson Sture sword, that is implemented in exactly same way on the Albion version.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | Chad, that is simply not true.
There are many examples of grips with only leather over wood that has cord impression. I have personally documented quite a few.
In those cases where you have embossed decoration it is also more or less standard to have the leather directly over the wood. Risers are built with cord or leather thongs regardless if cord is or is not used under the leather.
The method used at Albion is not intended to mimic something else. it is not a short cut. It is what it is, looking just like some well preserved originals made by this method.
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Peter,
Thanks for the correction. These kind of details are not published very often and I was assuming (erroneously) that cord patterns on extant grips were created by cord underneath.
Is the first sword you posted the Brescia sword? The pommel certainly looks familiar. If it is, I guess I might ask why the Albion Museum Line version uses a cord underwrap when the original did not.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the first sword is the Brescia!
Chad, I´m not sure the Museum Line version has cord underneath. If it does, it would be pretty funny after all I said in my previous post! 
It was so many years since we did the development work on that sword, and it went through many turns before reaching market. It was also one of the very first swords we did. I cannot now remember all things said in all those stages of development. If it indeed does have cord under the leather, I can only think we did that as an extra precaution against splitting of the core. Better to be extra, extra sure....
Over time, the issue of core splitting has proven to be a non issue. The wood and leather only is plenty strong. Adding cord under the leather of the Museum line swords is done since both the Solingen and the Svante has this feature, and quite probably the Tritonia as well (although that grip did not survive.
The Saint Maurice has not cord but linen cloth as can be seen on the original.
Adding cord under the leather of the Brescia is in any case not a short cut made to cheat customers out of something. 
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Julien M
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| Posted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Wonderfully detailed grips pictures!
You've certainly made your point Peter.
I'm intrigued by grip wraps using both stitching and yet bear cord overwrap marks.
Also I especially like the shot of the tooled grip as those are obviously rare on the reproduction market (if there are at all, as I recall seeing such work by you and Bartha mainly).
Is this grip the one you used as an inspiration for that sword below? Would you by any chance have pictures of other tooled grip such as this one?
Cheers,
Julien M
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | Yes, the first sword is the Brescia!
Chad, I´m not sure the Museum Line version has cord underneath. If it does, it would be pretty funny after all I said in my previous post!
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From the description page on Albion's site:
| Quote: | | The wooden core of the grip is bound with cord for extra strength and covered with leather. |
Perhaps we're getting off-topic here, but while I can see the point in having the cord on the Brescia, it does stray from the original, despite the Museum Line's goal of being faithful down to the smallest details:
| Quote: | | Each museum piece is recreated in an exacting fashion, down to every last conceivable detail. |
I guess it's all part of making the best (and safest) sword you can, but I wonder if the differences between the original and recreation need to be noted somewhere in the description so there isn't any confusion. For example, I assumed the original sword had a cord underwrap because the recreation did given the philosophy of the line.
| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Adding cord under the leather of the Brescia is in any case not a short cut made to cheat customers out of something |
I wasn't implying any cheating or deception. I simply was implying the overwrap sans underwrap was a way to get the look of a cord underwrap without the time and expense of a cord underwrap. And, I've been proven to be mistaken.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Christopher Gregg
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| Posted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: |
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May I go slightly off-topic here and just say how rare and wonderful it is to have such a cordial, polite, and courteous discourse between our forum members, especially when we correct each other. This is probably the main feature of myArmoury that sets it apart from the other sword sites, and why I thoroughly enjoy learning about swords and weaponry from this site alone. Bravo! 
Christopher Gregg
'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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Eric McHugh
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject: Explanation |
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I was part of the orginal development of the Brescia. It is one of my favorite sword, but the development of this sword was a nightmare. We did things over and over and over to get it right.
The grip was another area that was causing problems. The original leather we were using would not give the strong, bold lines that the orignal had, so to fix this we used an underwrap in spite of the research showing it without the underwrap. We felt is was more important to have the look of the original than to follow the exact procedure used on the original since no one would really see the difference under the grip.
Since that time, Albion found a supplier of leather that provided the look that we wanted without the underwrap. But, the procedure for making the Albion Brescia was now public, so we did not want to change it since it was an established step in the making of the sword.
So that is the basic reasoning for the difference. The photos of the making of the Brescia clearly show an underwrap, so it is not being hide. The important thing is that the grip on the Albion Brescia is a reasonable recreation of the the look, feel, and shape of the original.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Maurizio D'Angelo
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric McHugh wrote: |
The grip was another area that was causing problems. The original leather we were using would not give the strong, bold lines that the orignal had, so to fix this we used an underwrap in spite of the research showing it without the underwrap. We felt is was more important to have the look of the original than to follow the exact procedure used on the original since no one would really see the difference under the grip.
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I just finished reading this topic. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6526
I believe that something so small, it does not matter to many people.
I think that there is nothing to worry about, your sword is historical, however.
Regards
Maurizio
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This is a standard topic