There is essentially no difference between the socalled reinforced surcote and the Coat of Plates, except the pressence of a cloth skirt on the reinforced surcote.
IMHO this does not qualify to threat them as two different kinds of armour. The armour of St. Maurice from the mid 13th century is pretty much identical in construction to the visby finds, with exception of the direction of the chest plates (vertical in the st. maurice effigy, horisontal on the visby pieces.)
And, since there are writen sources on "chest protectors" and "plates" dating back to at least the same time as the first illustrations showing plated surcotes, there is no foundation for saying that one form developed from the other.

I thought the reinforced surcote was essentially a plain surcote with plates riveted to the front, protecting the chest?

M.

The big difference in my mind between a Coat of Plates, and an armoured surcoat falls mainly in the tailoring and the number and shaping of the plates. One seems to be a more tailored version of the other. Same way that both a bliaunt and Cothardie are "chest clothes" yet the style reflects one being much more tailored than the other. This is mainly due (IMO) to the number and spacing of the rivets, not allowing the St. Maurice to have as many plates as I have seen some CoP's having (by virtue of there not being any other rivets to hold them on).

So much of what we do is based on speculation and semantic evidence, that I believe we are essentially referring to the same kind of armour. Which is really what the terms are there for in the first place. Care to agree to disagree on this one?

Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight depicts a "sleeping guard" in a reinforced surcoat; it has no overlapping plates.

M.

While the 13th cenury examples have horistontal front plates, which results in different riveting, it's imposible to tell from the pictures if the plates overlap or not.
In any case, my point is that there is no foundation for stating that the 14th Ct. CoP developed from the armoured surcote; It devoped from the 13th Ct. CoP, which sometimes was integrated into the surcote, and sometimes worn under the surcote or mail.

BTW: this thread has gone way of topic; Perhaps the Admins could move the CoP discussion to http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8757 or a seperate thread...

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Guard at the speulcure

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St. Maurice, danish, ca 1300

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"Roman soldiers" at Getsemane, Norwegian altar frontal, ca 1300 (note the integrated CoP with horisontal plates on the guy on the right)

Hi Elling,

Getting this thread back online (and back from the dead) once more; could you perhaps show me some pictures of your cuisses and how the maille (and poleyn) are attached to it?

While I have a couple of polyons laying around, I haven't gotten around to mounting them yet.
However, here is a picture showing the padded leggings, and how the mail is attatched.
If you look at where the mail and padding meet on the left leg, you can see the leather strip which is riveted to the top of the chause.
This strip is then sewn to the padding.
(At the time when the picture was taken, the stitcing was going up, which is why you can see the leather.)

The chause are cut to shape, and laced at the back. Theoretically, I could have had them closed almost down to the ancle, but my riveted mail skills are not all that great. The lacing does however give a very thight and sleek look, which is the way it looks in the manuscripts (this COULD be bad drawing skills, of course, as variations in body shape and proprtions are not the forte of high medevial artists)

While I have no real evidence for doing it this way, it works really well, and looks the way it should. If i where to do it again, I would do the same, but have the mail go higher up, under the padding,

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The mail chausses I put together are for costuming use, and I suspect I'm way off in the historical accuracy, but here's how I made them work. Since my renfaire kit is aluminum and I'm trying to keep the costs down, I started with the ThinkGeek "aluminum chainmail t-shirt" and separated it out into rectangles that I could re-assemble. This of course means it's butted mail. As a result of bending at the knee, it frequently needs repairs in the form of re-linking over the kneecap.

I put it together by lacing it around the edges over simple leather cuisses that lace up the back, and loop over a belt. I find that they stay in place best of these loops are placed over the points of the pelvis (that is, somewhat forward of the sides, but not at the front).

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Elling, that looks really good. Nice picture too!

So, if I understand correctly, the leather strip is folded around the top of the maille sheet and then you rivet through the leather-maille-leather? Or is it riveted against the leather somehow; if so, how?

Ed, that looks rather effective too! Nice work! The Sheets I have are not long enough to go over my upper legs though, so I need a different attachment.

My god, this thread is awsome, as I'm a 13th century man myself (after all, William Marshall, the greatest *English* knight ever!) and am attempting to construct a kit based on the Maciejowski Bible (augmented with splint vambraces and greaves in case it gets heavy :lol: ), and chausses are the hardest thing I've come across so far to get decent info on. I'm afraid I don't have much info, but I come bearing pictures, so I hope that'll suffice :D
Also, anyone know what those little squares that rest atop a 13th century knight shoulders are called? I like the theory that they serve a duel purpose whatever they're called, heraldric device and proto-pauldron ha.

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And here's St. Maurice...

I think that would be " Ailettes " from the French and the literal meaning are small wings or winglets.

At one time it was assumed that they where armour but the current theory is more that they may have been made of hardened leather or parchment and mostly useful as heraldic pieces similar to those used on the shield or surcoat and a help in identifying who was who.

They may also have been defensive in nature but I'm not sure if this is true or not as I'm basing this post on what I remember reading here on this site but I don't have a primary source to confirm the information: Maybe others will bring in some confirmation of the current best guess or theory on their use(s).

Oh, maybe a search for " ailettes " on this site might be useful ? Always a good idea to try a search here as so many things have been discussed before. ;) :D

Reiner:
Mine are simply pieces of a leather belt, and use modern two part rivets. However, the method you decribe would work as well.
The important bit is that it is solid enough to not be worn through by the weigth and motion of the mail.

Sam: As Jean sais, the shoulder pieces are called Ailettes. However, if you want to portray a knight from William Marshalls period, he lived from 1146 to 1219. The ailettes and did not appear until the 1270's, with splint defences beeing even later.
My advice is to buy a good quality, light riveted mail, and make the chause from lose panels. Alternately you can buy a sleeveless riveted mail shirt and turn it into chauses.

Thanks, again.

I am considering making small hooks out of metal (brass) wire, sewing them to the inside of the cuises (once made) and attaching the maille to that. I expect that should work pretty well too.

They are in any case not common until the late 13th century. The introduction of the ailettes is one of the main ways to tell the difference between a 1250's and 1300 knight.
There are exceptions, of course. For instance, there is one knight in The Life of Edward the Confessor (1250s) that looks like he belongs in the Codex Manesse (heraldic surcote, ailettes, and crested helmet) But it is better to reenact a representative knight for your period than trying to backdate your equipment as much as you can.

Hey guys, new to the site, but I have recently purchased some chauses from medievalcollectibles.com. They are butted, but are full length, and I believe a good value. They will need some leather webbing of sorts to go around the thigh to enable them to ride a bit more comfortably. The upper part of the chausses where they attatch to the belt is rivited, and pretty strong. They cost about $130. Here's the link

http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/chainmail...r-716.html

Also, I am piecing together a mid 14th century kit and have been told that the chauses are out of line. This seems a bit far fetched for me, while there may not be an abundance of examples of knights wearing chauses in the 14th century, it seems unlikely that they would have totally disapeared like that. They do much to protect the areas where my grieves don't cover. Any thoughts on this?

I can just keep coming up with new questions...

Elling, do I see correctly that your padding is open behind the knee? You're opponent does seem to have padded hosen all the way down. How much would that interfere with bending the knee?

Thanks again...

R

I'm liking this thread, as it is relevant to my interests.
I come bearing website, hope this may assist: http://www.randyasplund.com/browse/medieval/chausse1.html
I think that (according to the Maciejowsky Bible) they don the cuisses tying them to a belt or somthing, then perhaps attach the chausses to the cuisses but up over the knee (so like a pair of long socks), so it's like a two part design or somthing. Just a guess, but I think that's what I'd do (and am planning to :D ) cheaper, lighter 'easier' and that way if they felt so inclined could change it to cuisses over chausses. That's my guess anyway.