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Kenneth Enroth
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 Posted: Mon 27 Sep, 2004 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | | Incidentally, I did my own scalar measurements and they turned out alot smaller - about 51 inches overall. Is your arm really really long? I used my 5'9" tall younger brother for scale instead of my own arm. |
I'm 6'1"and my forearm is 12 inches wich means the picture is scaled 1:30. But that means I have to guess where the elbow is on the knight. I measured the full arm as well. Then the scale is 1:27. The length of the sword is then about 57,5 inches. All measurements are taken from a print of the picture that is in the original post of this thread.
However the sword is not much shorter than the wielder when you measure it so 51 inches seems rather short to me, considering the grip looks like it could accomodate four hands.
I think it's safe to say though that the size of these weapons are quite variable as with all weapons that have an agricultural background. I remember reading that they found a head from a dane axe that measured 18 inches and the average is about 9-10 inches. The other example of a fauchard in the Mac. bible looks like it is much smaller than this one.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Mon 27 Sep, 2004 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Just jumping in here as I am French Canadian and the name Faussar sounded familiar but slightly off: Looking through my collection of books I found a reference to FAUCHARD and "Faux de Guerre" which translated to WAR-SCYTHE.
From: ARMES et ARMURES de Charlemagne à Louis XIV, par Paul Martin Conservateur du Musée historique de Strasbourg,
1967 Office du Livre, Fribourg
Page 235:" Une autre arme, le "fauchard., s'inspirant des principes de construction et de maniement de la faux de guerre, allait en adopter les avantages et en supprimer les inconvénients. La solidité et la trempe de la lame, déjà, la rendait plus appropriée à la guerre. Mais la forme surtout du tranchant sera déterminante pour son usage. Au lieu d'avoir, comme la faux ordinaire, une courbe concave, en avant, le tranchant prend une forme convexe et fuyante vers le dos de la lame.
Cette disposition permettait d'utiliser le fauchard tant pou l'estoc que pour la taille."
The point of the above is that the FAUCHARD is based on the WAR-SCYTHE (Which is an agricultural implement modified and made stouter for use in war.) The FAUCHARD is an improvement on the WAR-SCYTHE by reversing the curve giving it a convex instead of a concave sharpened edge: Making it more suitable than the WAR-SCYTHE as being effective as well in "Estoc" (Thrust) as well as in slashing. |
Yes I remember this reference as well. I believe the two terms are interchangeable and I have definitely seen the term Fauchard before. It is probably one of those cases of regional accents and no set spelling rules in medieval manuscripts.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Mon 27 Sep, 2004 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Kenneth Enroth wrote: | | Alina Boyden wrote: | | Incidentally, I did my own scalar measurements and they turned out alot smaller - about 51 inches overall. Is your arm really really long? I used my 5'9" tall younger brother for scale instead of my own arm. |
I'm 6'1"and my forearm is 12 inches wich means the picture is scaled 1:30. But that means I have to guess where the elbow is on the knight. I measured the full arm as well. Then the scale is 1:27. The length of the sword is then about 57,5 inches. All measurements are taken from a print of the picture that is in the original post of this thread.
However the sword is not much shorter than the wielder when you measure it so 51 inches seems rather short to me, considering the grip looks like it could accomodate four hands.
I think it's safe to say though that the size of these weapons are quite variable as with all weapons that have an agricultural background. I remember reading that they found a head from a dane axe that measured 18 inches and the average is about 9-10 inches. The other example of a fauchard in the Mac. bible looks like it is much smaller than this one. |
Yeah I can only assume I messed up on my scale. I think mine was like 1:25 or something of that nature. 57.5 inches definitely seems reasonable to me as far as the length is concerned. I would have alot of fun with something like that.
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Kenneth Enroth
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| Posted: Mon 27 Sep, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder what sort of grip construction to use in a replica. From a functional standpoint maybe a messer hilt with slab tang would fit best for this type of sword?
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Sean Flynt
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Jeanry Chandler
Location: New Orleans, Louisiana Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Mon 27 Sep, 2004 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Did anybody consider that the weapon resembles a Dacian falx or Thracian Romphia? We tend to think of those weapons as having the edge on the inside of the curve but they were actually found sharpened both ways.
Fascinating thread btw.
JR
"A strong people do not ned a strong leader."
Emiliano Zapata
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Mon 27 Sep, 2004 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeanry Chandler wrote: | Did anybody consider that the weapon resembles a Dacian falx or Thracian Romphia? We tend to think of those weapons as having the edge on the inside of the curve but they were actually found sharpened both ways.
Fascinating thread btw.
JR |
Actually my first thought upon seeing this weapon a few years back was "Rhomphaia!" These sorts of hafted weapons have occurred throughout European history. I'm surprised they don't get more press than they do.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Tue 28 Sep, 2004 6:21 am Post subject: |
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it must be noted that the artist propbably didn't put much effort into drawing the weapons exactly to scale.
Weapons in medevial illustrations work largely along the same lines as in modern movies. You can recognice the MP5's, the Berreta's and the Desert Eagles in the Matrix, but what they do is based on coolness factor, rather than realism. More blood and gore is always a crowdpleaser. Thus, people get chopped in two while wearing chainmail, and people get thrown three meters through the air by 9mm bullets...
Realism is just soooo boring...
Yours
Elling
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Lloyd Clark
Location: Beaver Dam, WI Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Fri 01 Oct, 2004 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Geoff Wood wrote: | Perhaps it was something as simple as ' a knight chopped a man almost in half with a glaive', but the artist erroneously put the knight on horseback because that's more where he expected him to be (the status thing). As I said, just speculating.
Geoff |
I thought the same thing (or perhaps it was just artistic license). Even standing upright in the stirrups, it would be nearly (if not) impossible to generate enough force to cut through a mailled warrior as is seen in this picture. Most of the power is generated from the speed of the horse, which would not be possible in this as it appears that the fallen warrior's horse is running away, which would drastically reduce the force gained from the wielder's horse. This would be especially impossible if the knights were in a melee and the horses either stationary (well, not really) or moving with a very slow forward momentum.
While this type of weapon may have existed, the feat that is ascribed to it in the picture is dubious at best.
Cheers,
Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Carl Croushore
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 03 Oct, 2004 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Bladesmith Rick Barrett has, in my opinion, a beautiful variation of a short glaive, though more 'fantastic' than the Maciejowski glaive. It's worth a look.
http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/fantasy/abyssian.htm
Cheers!
-- Carl Croushore
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: |
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I like the fauchard/faussar idea, and I also think that it is a "proto-falchion".
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Jeff Demetrick
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Bart Walczak wrote: | | Next three are from Romance of Alexander, the last one from an unknown source: |
Hi Bart,
the first image is from the Queen Mary's Psalter c. 1300.
Jeff
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Mon 07 Jan, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for digging up such an old thread, but I recently came across another Maciejowski illustration with that strange "glaive" wielded two-handed on horseback, and thought you guys might want to see it:
Look at the knight in blue coat and white great helm on the left. Here, too, the weapon is being shown performing quite a remarkable feat of cutting power...
Image found at http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_bible.htm
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Lodovico Zago
Location: Conegliano, Italy Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 5
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Alex Hoogstraten
Location: The netherlands Joined: 05 Jan 2010
Posts: 20
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Lodovico Zago
Location: Conegliano, Italy Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon 29 Nov, 2010 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Alex Hoogstraten wrote: |
Are you sure it is not an normal polearm? The pole seems to go on behind the boards of the ship and the bearer is holdinging it near the blade because they are fighting in close quarters.
But that is what I see, so I could be wrong
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At first I thought too that it was a polearm! But if you watch closely near the boards of the ship, the thing between the two wood pieces is larger than the handle of the weapon and it is of an another color; I think it's a piece of fabric of the armour.
Also, I think that for cutting the cheekbone of an enemy near in front of me, the usual lenght of a polearm would be one hell of an hindrance.
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Alex Hoogstraten
Location: The netherlands Joined: 05 Jan 2010
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Mon 29 Nov, 2010 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| Lodovico Zago wrote: |
At first I thought too that it was a polearm! But if you watch closely near the boards of the ship, the thing between the two wood pieces is larger than the handle of the weapon and it is of an another color; I think it's a piece of fabric of the armour.
Also, I think that for cutting the cheekbone of an enemy near in front of me, the usual lenght of a polearm would be one hell of an hindrance. |
This is a a matter of interpetation. You could be right. and that piece between the poles could indeed be the pommel of the weapon.But that makes the handle longer than other weapons of this type. Or it is just a short polearm. I don't think it is meant to be fabric either way.
It also could be as I mentioned before and the illustrater wasn't that accurate when he drew this. As for the use of polearms. In other parts of the illustration there are more polearm bearers holding their weapons in odd positions. This is not strange considering the type of fight.
What I think happed I base on personal experience drawing fightscenes between two or more people. Maybe he wanted to draw a longer pole arm but as he went allong discoverd that it wouldn't add up and shortend the polearm in het drawing.
But this is all speculation. As far as we know It could all have sprong or the artists imagenation. It is just one of the sad things about history that we can never know for sure.
www.cranenburgh.nl
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Lodovico Zago
Location: Conegliano, Italy Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon 29 Nov, 2010 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Alex Hoogstraten wrote: |
But this is all speculation. As far as we know It could all have sprong or the artists imagenation. It is just one of the sad things about history that we can never know for sure. |
Yep, i sympathize with what you said 
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Nick P.
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| Posted: Mon 29 Nov, 2010 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Hi . Long time lurker, first time poster. I was compelled to post today because... well...I found this http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-3498-functiona...h0029.aspx. It calls it a chopper, but I assume its a repro of the glaive-thing that's the focus of this topic.
I don't know how it performs, but the description says its " functional". Its shorter than what Kenneth and Alina surmised for the mac bible version, but this one is a fantasy sword.
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Alex Hoogstraten
Location: The netherlands Joined: 05 Jan 2010
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Mon 29 Nov, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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The type of blade is not unknown. They're are known eastern variants.
There is also an older type of weapon used by the Dacians in Roman times. I think it was called the 'Flax'. Maybe it was an inspiration for the latter morgan blades.
I think the name Chopper is a bit odd thou. When I think Chopper I think a. a helicopter. b. Arnold Schwarzenegger and c. A one handed single edged broad knive/ short sword originaly used for cutting brenches or small trees.
www.cranenburgh.nl
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This is a standard topic