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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Feb, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
That group is great, I think, for being honest with headgears. So many reenactment /living-history groups seem to do everything right except that they've got way too many uncovered heads.
Are you refering to Ulfhednar? While the helmets are correct for the period, they are based on king's helmets. That's like portraying a 21th century civilian wearing a golden crown. Generally, re-enactment groups doing Viking or migration period re-enactment look like hell's angles wearing watered down king's clothing and equipment. It does not at all portray what warriors of the period looked like, and neither does it do justice to the actual wealth of the kings they portray either. Also the long hair and beards is not a something you'd see in the migration period. But I guess in that respect I sin for my own periods as well, as my own hair is far to long too:) (for early iron age I should be completely bald!)
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sat 10 Feb, 2007 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was actually referring to the non-helmet headgear. Mostly for the women--so far there seems to be a far lower proportion of bareheaded ones among them than in most other "Germanic" groups that I know of. And bareheaded ladies has always been my pet peeve ever since I got an overdose of them in an SCA event.

BTW, I wouldn't blame these groups for dressing the people like royalty because most of the time the sources are only available in sufficient quantity and quality for that class. For Merovingians, though, you may be right since I do recall some illustrations of the dress of peasants and ordinary townsmen from their period, though they're not really all that detailed.

And who knows if they are reenacting the events of a royal court? Wink

As far as hair length goes, I'm in the process of lengthening mine. I mostly do 17th- and 18th-century and my bloody hair isn't long enough yet to pull into a queue. (Argh.)


Last edited by Lafayette C Curtis on Sat 10 Feb, 2007 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Sat 10 Feb, 2007 5:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
That group is great, I think, for being honest with headgears. So many reenactment /living-history groups seem to do everything right except that they've got way too many uncovered heads.
Are you refering to Ulfhednar? While the helmets are correct for the period, they are based on king's helmets. That's like portraying a 21th century civilian wearing a golden crown. Generally, re-enactment groups doing Viking or migration period re-enactment look like hell's angles wearing watered down king's clothing and equipment. It does not at all portray what warriors of the period looked like, and neither does it do justice to the actual wealth of the kings they portray either. Also the long hair and beards is not a something you'd see in the migration period. But I guess in that respect I sin for my own periods as well, as my own hair is far to long too:) (for early iron age I should be completely bald!)


As was pointed out, he was referring to non military headgear from the French Merovingian group.

When you say "king" in a Viking ('Ulfhednar' is a Viking term) context I think you yourself are using a bit of an anachronism. In the early to middle Viking era, a "king" or an "earl" was more like a chieftain, they didn't sit on a high throne like Louis XIV in some gigantic palace, you are talking about a guy who runs a big farm with a lot of sheep and cows, which has a bunch of other farms nearby that pay fealty to him, and he hangs out in a 30 or 40 meter hall with maybe a couple of dozen other guys. They sleep twenty feet from where the slaves sleep curled up around a hearth. Not quite the untouchable one in a million royalty like the Queen of England.

The availablity of different kinds of military kit varied quite a bit over the course of the Viking Age as well. Sure in the early period you probably don't have lots of people running around with Sutton-Hoo type helmets let alone mail, but by the time a few thousand major raids have been launched, and the English Saxons and Carolingian monarchs have shelled out the first few Danegeld payments of THOUSANDS OF POUNDS of silver, there were quite a few Norse warriors around who could afford swords, helmets, mail byrnies, and plenty more besides.

J

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Felix Wang




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PostPosted: Sat 10 Feb, 2007 8:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A lot of gear from this period was tossed in Scandinavian bogs, in places like Illerup Adal in Denmark. There are a number of books on this site and others. Huge numbers of shields, spears, and a lot of swords - some of Roman make. Not a lot of armour, as I recall.
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Hugh Fuller




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Henri, you have such a huge span of time about which you ask that I doubt that any one of us could answer you. I'll attempt a discussion of the Anglo-Saxons of the period of their conquest of Britain, say 450-650 CE.

The men would have been dressed in woolen or linen tunics and trousers, dyed with the vegetable dyes available to them. But do not think that all such dyes were of a subdued appearance. A member of our re-enactment has a shawl that she researched from a grave find in Germany and it is a brilliant Saxon Blue. She maintains that it is accurate in its color and I know that the red of the Roman tunics could be pretty bright. The men's tunics would have been trimmed, if they could afford it, with woven trim in various patterns. Shoes were most likely turnshoes, much like the Native American moccasins, sewn together and then turned the other side out. Headgear is speculative at best. Phrygian caps are popular among American re-enactors based upon documentary evidence of similar appearing caps, but such are from a later period and speculative at best for this period. It only makes sense that they wore something in Northern climes.. Finally, they wore woolen cloaks pinned with various pins such as penannulars or fibulae. I can speak from experience that, when doubled, they are very warm and very water resistant.

Women wore a light woolen or linen shift, a long sleeved tunica with tight sleeves that fastened with clasps and a sort pf long tubular woolen item that pinned together at the shoulders, leaving the arms covered only by the tunica. The pins were not the turtle pins of the later Norse period. Women also wore their hair done up in scarves or veils of linen or wool. They also wore turnshoes and woolen cloaks.

Helmets were mostly spangenhelms, the segmented helmets held together within a frame. But they were not worn by all warriors as it was a metals poor culture and metal armor was an expensive luxury. A mail hauberk was even more of an expensive luxury. The basic defense was a round shield of wooden planks with an iron boss protectong the handgrip. They were frequently bound around the edges with rawhide and covered with leather then painted with a design. Sometimes they might have metal trim items on the face..

The basic weapon was the spear. These were easily made by any village blacksmith and used minimal metal. The warrior also would carry a knife, ususally a seax, of varying size. If he was wealthy, or lucky, enough, he would have a sword. These would be the basic Germanic spatha of the period, a heavy slashing sword that lacked the sophistication of the later Viking Era swords with thei fullers and lighter blades. But swords are very difficult and demanding products and, therefore, costly. They could be afforded only by the wealthier or by the person who could pick one up as loot from a battle. Some of them, such as the sword found in the Sutton Hoo burial, could be quite elaborate and handsome...The blades, at this time, were largely all pattern-welded. Finally, nearly every man had an axe and these turn up regularly in graves and in archaeological sites all over England. But they weren't the double-bitted axes so beloved of fantasy artists. They were single bitted and made of iron with a steel edge forge-welded into it.

Well, that is a more or less basic description of your invasion era Anglo-Saxon.

Hugh
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Carl Goff wrote:
I recall that Robert Graves, in the prelude to I, Claudius, commented that German spears (at least in the Augustan period) could have been similar to the assegais developed hundreds of years later in Africa.

As Claudius is fiction (extremely well-researched, though), you can take it with a grain of salt. Since Graves did do extensive translations of historical work, though, I'd be inclined to believe his suggestion.


This is certainly feasable, as you have both the Viking "hewing spear" and the infamous Viking "halberd" which are quite similar, it's reasonable to assume that such weapons existed in earlier incarnations. There is also the Dacian Falx and the Thracian Roncha (sp?) which are kind of similar.

J

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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Scott wrote:
I would not consider the Scandinavians drastically different from the Germans, as at least in Northumbria, the two peoples mixed rather easily. The only major difference I can honestly see is that the Franks, Angles, and other Germanic peoples lost their Pagan faith before the Scandinavians did.


There were certainly many points of cultural similarity, and some areas of relative harmony between the two peoples such as in the North of England, but I would disagree with you that they mixed so easily. There are many examples of the very bad blood in fact which existed between the two populations. To cite just one, the infamous St. Brice's day massacre of 1002 AD (after the two populations had been living side by side for generations) was a particularly nasty early example of genocide and ethnic cleansing which is still a holliday in England to this day IIRC .

There are also many other hints of the major differences between the cultures. The Treaty of Alfred and Guthrun around 878-880 AD is revealing in the way the wereguild was set; the Saxons differentiated widely between a lord or a ceorl (serf / peasant) wheras the Danes had only one set value for the life of any free man regardless of rank (except for former slaves)

The Saxons didn't, as far as i know, have anything like the Scandinavian tribal council / court the "Thing", relying instead upon Monarchs, reaves and chieftains to act as both judge and ruler. Nor did the Saxons IIRC use juries until the concept was introduced to them by the Vikings.

They certianly had very different concepts of dealing with their women; Viking law on divorce is actually very similar to Celtic law, a woman could divorce a man for snoring, for bad sex, or for failing to provide adequately.

They even seemed to have different standards of hygene. A Saxon bishop famously complained that Norse men were leading Saxon women into temptation by their excessive cleanliness due to their habit of bathing once a week.

By contrast, the assimilation of the Vikings in Ireland, (though initially and intermittently very violent), Russia, and Normandy seemed to be much more rapid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Brice's_Day_massacre[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Alfred_and_Guthrum[/url]


Jean

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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Er...there are a few primary source statements that the Anglo-Saxons could understand the Viking's speech after a fashion without the use of translators. So they couldn't have been all that different.

That group is great, I think, for being honest with headgears. So many reenactment /living-history groups seem to do everything right except that they've got way too many uncovered heads.

Eh. BTW, was the pilum ever a strictly throwing weapon? From what I hear they were perfectly usable as spears in hand-to-hand fighting as well, but I'm not sure about that.


A pilum would make a good thrusting spear but if you have ever tried to use a spear with a big shield you know how akward that can be, I'd much rather use a sword.

I have never heard of pilum being used by Roman soldiers as a hand-to-hand weapon but I'm not an expert on that subject, maybe Matthew Amt could tell us something about that.

Jean

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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:

Jean, it sounds like we have some common consensus and interests here. I hate broadly grouping 1/3 of Western Europe as having descended from Scandinavia. I have nothing against it, but suspect that there were plenty of natives over a broad region. I was sort of objecting to the whole "Germanic Tribes" thing as this seems to get applied to an excessively broad territory and period.

I was looking for information on the "Framea" which was supposedly a type of javelin or spear according to some period sources. So far, I have not found a credible explanation from a reputable source. I too am interested in how some of these groups evolved over the period up to about 8th century. In particular, I wanted to know if any of the elite cavalry (Tencteri etc.) continued their tradition as specialists such that descendants skills were still prevalent in the era of Charles Martel. It is just a theory, but I figured one might be able to correlate regions of major cavalry recruitment with homelands of some of these descendants in the Carolingian era when cavalry use escalated.

Feedback on poor assumptions, possible approaches for searching the information, or you added knowledge is greately appreciated.


Hi Jared

I think the Framea was a heavy spear and was actually used by the Romans in the Republican era, (or am I thinking of another weapon?) I think it's really interesting how some Romans (Germanicus in his speach) asserted that the Germanic tribes were so iron poor that they were using a lot of stone tipped spears.

I agree with you it's interesting to try to figure out what happened to some of this high quality German cavalry, and the traditional bodyguards of the nobles, (comitatus?). That and the early existence of Iranian tribes like the Alans, and the adaptation of the Goths to heavy cavalry, seem to be part of the core of the later formation of this heavy cavalry elite in Europe in the Medieval period.

Jean

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
As was pointed out, he was referring to non military headgear from the French Merovingian group.

When you say "king" in a Viking ('Ulfhednar' is a Viking term) context I think you yourself are using a bit of an anachronism. In the early to middle Viking era, a "king" or an "earl" was more like a chieftain, they didn't sit on a high throne like Louis XIV in some gigantic palace
Of course I know that, but they tend to pick the very richest burials in the west of Europe, spaning over several centuries, and display that as a group of typical early medieval warriors. The "kings" or whatever you may call them may not have lived in palaces, but they definately did invest their richeness in their dress, weapons etc. And I'll bet that these halls were also highly decorated with expensive woodwork etc., making quite a bit of a distinction between who's the boss, and who's the simple farmer. But anyway, this wasn't what Lafayette refered to Happy

Quote:
The availablity of different kinds of military kit varied quite a bit over the course of the Viking Age as well. Sure in the early period you probably don't have lots of people running around with Sutton-Hoo type helmets let alone mail, but by the time a few thousand major raids have been launched, and the English Saxons and Carolingian monarchs have shelled out the first few Danegeld payments of THOUSANDS OF POUNDS of silver, there were quite a few Norse warriors around who could afford swords, helmets, mail byrnies, and plenty more besides.

But why don't we ever find any of them? We've got hoards of swords, but only one single helmet and AFAIK no Viking armour?
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:

But why don't we ever find any of them? We've got hoards of swords, but only one single helmet and AFAIK no Viking armour?


Actually, I thought they had recovered more than a few helmets and some Viking mail. I'm going to check on that and I'll see what I can find.

Certainly a LOT of contemporaneous accounts describe Norse armies as being clad in mail, and even in some cases losing battles when they removed it to travel faster.

But I do have a theory why we find so many swords and so little armor, even from late in the Viking period and other eras.

One thing we have learned about Swords is that they do not hold up indefinately to combat use. Swords will get nicked up, chipped, they will lose their shape to constant honing. I think it makes sense to bury a sword with a warrior because, while it could last a long time if carefully treated, in many cases swords were almost disposable or at the very least, had a finite useful life.

Armor, depending on the type, could have a much longer useful life.

Armor made of textiles, or (more rarely) leather wouldn't last forever certainly.

A lot of plate harness (other than munitions grade) was so individually tailored that it had to be difficult to retool it, so it makes sense that when a lord or a famous knight died his armor might be retired.

But lamellar could be re-threaded easily. Scales could be applied to a new backing. Mail armor, in particular, could have a very long life, be passed down from generation to generation until it finally got rusted or fell apart.

There is some indirect evidence of this specifically as it relates toi the Vikings; I find it interesting that the Gallowglass, when they emerged into history, seemed to be armed in Mail at a time when plate harness was popular in most of the rest of Europe. We know these folks were descended from Norse warriors. I wonder if some of that mail was actually an heirloom.


Jean

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Norlyn C




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: Germanic Tribes Military Kit...Alamanni Website...         Reply with quote

I thought i would put in my 2 cents with a nice website devoted to re-enacting the Germanic Alamanni Kit from the 3rd to 6th century or so (when they were conquered by the Franks). The author of this site takes the time to talk about his recreations and construction techniques for them. You can view the website here:

http://www.nordicus.ch/nordicusprojects.html

I find it interesting the details about the Alamanni Bow and the lack of info on the Axe, whereas most sources talk more about this than the Seax (knife).

Well worth the visit. For those unfamiliar with the Alamanni you can get some basic details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamanni

I hope this helps. Happy

Sincerely,

Norlyn
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Germanic Tribes Military Kit...Alamanni Website...         Reply with quote

Norlyn C wrote:
I thought i would put in my 2 cents with a nice website devoted to re-enacting the Germanic Alamanni Kit from the 3rd to 6th century or so (when they were conquered by the Franks). The author of this site takes the time to talk about his recreations and construction techniques for them. You can view the website here:

http://www.nordicus.ch/nordicusprojects.html

I find it interesting the details about the Alamanni Bow and the lack of info on the Axe, whereas most sources talk more about this than the Seax (knife).

Well worth the visit. For those unfamiliar with the Alamanni you can get some basic details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamanni

I hope this helps. Happy

Sincerely,

Norlyn


Thanks, that is a really, really good site, I appreciate the link.

J

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Felix Kunze




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 1:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For information of germanic kit in the time of Caesar and the defeat of Varus at Teutoburg Forest (9 AD) try the german site:
www.chasuari.de.
The written information is in German, but they have a very nice gallery (Galerie) and look quite authentic (also some germanic tribes might have fought bare-chested).
Take a special note to the single edged germanic swords, precedessor of the sax but mostly replaced by roman sword types in the second century AD. The kit also shows heavy celtic influence, which is also clearly recognisable in archaeological finds of the period and gets more and more replaced by roman styles after the roman conquest of Gaul.

To the spears: The description of Tacitus was partly confirmed by bog finds, where spears tipped with bone points were found (mostly javelins).
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