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Richard Fay
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 Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: MRL Sword of Auray? |
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Hello all!
I was wondering if anyone has any feedback regarding the handling and construction of the MRL Sword of Auray. It seems nice enough from the photos, and it kind of looks like the sword that it's possibly based on. It actually sounds interesting with it's hollow-ground blade. Does anyone have any information regarding handling and fit and finish? 
Now, let's not let this turn into a discussion about how MRL aren't comparable to Angus Trim, Arms & Armour, Albion, and so on. I am aware of this, but I will be lucky to scrape just together enough to purchase the Auray (about $150 at the Kult of Athena). No, I won't be able to up my "price point" to a "better" product (there are too many other things that needed to be purchased or paid for that were much higher priorities). It's also not fiscally possible for me to "save up" until I could reach that "price point", the extra money just isn't there for that. This is a one-time availability of a little (and I mean "a little") extra money. I just wanted to let everyone know this, so we don't get distracted into another lower-end sword discussion.
The Sword of Tiberias is another possible contender, but the Auray might be a little more like the historical sword type it is supposed to represent. However, the mark-down price of the Tiberias is really tempting.
Any help regarding this issue would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for any and all input on this matter.
By the way, here's a thread where Nathan posted a photo of the possible inspiration for the MRL Auray:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...p;start=22
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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A&A used to make a sword very similar to this one (relax Richard, I'm not comparing). I loved the design of that one, but alas, I was very poor at the time and they dropped the design before I could ever afford swords at that level. I was pleased to see Windlass make a similar sword and I'd like to see some feedback on it myself. Nice design.
Richard,
If you can afford it why not get it? You can always utilize MRLs nice return policy if it isn't satisfactory.
Edit: I just noticed you mentioned purchasing from Kult of Athena not MRL. I've done business with Ryan at KofA and he's always been agreeable to returns as well.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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I know absolutely nothing about that sword. Except that I'm curious about it. While I'm sure they didn't take the time/money to get the hollow-grind completely correct (from what I've read, the hollow grind often stops short of the edge, leaving a more robust edge), it's a nice-looking budget offering.
Like some of their other offering in the last few years, they seem to be trying to pack features into the price point. This one has the hollow-grind, the shaped grip, and those brass ferrules have a decent shape to them as well. For $150, it looks to be a bargain.
If you get it, please consider a full review (not a forum post) so everyone can best benefit from your experience.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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The grip on the original sword is currently bare, but without more info it's hard to know what it had originally. For me, it wouldn't be a deal-killer considering the other features (and low price) the sword has; but that's entirely a personal preference thing. Plus, as you say, a piece of leather an a little time can fix that right up. 
Richard,
I say you buy it (isn't it easy to spend other people's money? )
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | A&A used to make a sword very similar to this one (relax Richard, I'm not comparing).
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Hey Patrick, are you trying to say I get too excited?  I had heard that Arms & Armour used to make a similar sword, but it was apparently long before I even knew about Arms & Armour swords. I've never actually seen that one. I wouldn't mind some input regarding how the designs compare, keeping the differences in price in mind. Anyone have any pictures of the similar Arms & Armour sword?
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I loved the design of that one, but alas, I was very poor at the time and they dropped the design before I could ever afford swords at that level. I was pleased to see Windlass make a similar sword and I'd like to see some feedback on it myself. Nice design. |
I, too, thought this was a pretty good design for MRL, even though my wife and daughter think it's "ugly" (and my wife's actually the one with the money - I have to convince her it's worth getting .)
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If you can afford it why not get it? You can always utilize MRLs nice return policy if it isn't satisfactory. |
I actually like the price at Kult of Athena better. I ordered my Arbedo from them (my last sword purchase), and I was pretty happy with their service. They list if an item is in stock; out-of-stock and back-ordered items can be a problem with MRL. If we can mange it, I will probably get this one. Like I said, the Sword of Tiberias is the only other contender, but the Auray might be a bit more manageable, if not "too light". I think it's weight is listed as 2 lbs 2 oz. Not that I do any cutting, but I do like things that feel okay. I'm intrigued by the hollow ground blade on the Auray.
I must say, when I have ordered from MRL, I've never actually used their return policy. My old MRL/Del-Tin Man-at-Arms was great at the time (1995 or 1996), even though it had a few minor pits in the pommel, possibly from UPS leaving the box on the porch during a wet, rainy day (thankfully, the porch had a roof). When I got my first Windlass swords, right after MRL switched over to Windlass, I didn't really know any better to return them (my Medieval Sword and Norman sword were rather heavy and poorly made). Most of my more recent purchases (within the past few years) have been closeout swords, and the worst problem I had was with a grip on the Patay that needed some grip core work. It was no big deal for me to soak some Gorilla glue into the wood to shore it up, and secure it with epoxy. Every other sword I got from MRL was in pretty good shape. I try to shop with care, and get ones that look pretty good, and seem to get good reviews.
Thanks for the response, Patrick. We'll have to see if I can actually get one or the other, as my one sword every year or two!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | I like the sword. It's likely worth the price. The one thing that I don't care for at all is the bare wood grip. To me, that's a deal breaker in a sword. Having said that, it would make for a wonderful opportunity to add a grip cover to the piece. Many Windlass offerings are wonderful canvases for projects such at this. |
| Chad Arnow wrote: | | The grip on the original sword is currently bare, but without more info it's hard to know what it had originally. For me, it wouldn't be a deal-killer considering the other features (and low price) the sword has; but that's entirely a personal preference thing. Plus, as you say, a piece of leather an a little time can fix that right up. |
Hey Nathan and Chad!
Considering that I have rewrapped just about every grip on every MRL sword I own, more than once for a few of them, wrapping the grip wouldn't be a problem for me. If I get it, I might even leave the wood bare. There are a few medieval swords with bare wood grips; the "writhen" hilt sword in the Royal Armouries collection and the sword of King Sancho IV of Castille (with decorated disks) are two examples. Of course, a wire wrap might look cool, if the bulge in the centre doesn't throw the wire off too badly. I had tried to wrap the Towton in wire, but found that central "bump" on that one to be difficult to cover properly. Then again, it might be a good chance to try a fabric grip, or try coloured cord again (my Norman was once covered in blue cord with an overbinding of trellised and knotted red, but it got worn and dirty, so I replaced it with leather).
I probably will get this one if I can mange it, since it seems to have caught the interest of others as well.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | While I'm sure they didn't take the time/money to get the hollow-grind completely correct (from what I've read, the hollow grind often stops short of the edge, leaving a more robust edge), it's a nice-looking budget offering.
If you get it, please consider a full review (not a forum post) so everyone can best benefit from your experience. |
Hey Chad!
When you say that the hollow grind often stops short of the edge, leaving a more robust edge, do you mean on historical swords, or on hollow-ground MRL swords? It does indeed seem that this was done on historical swords; the Edward III sword apparently exhibits this. There ae very nice close-up photos of the Edward III sword in the back of Ewart Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword. One of them shows the way the grinding left a bit of a thickened edge. I tried to scan the photo in, and adjust it to make the hollow ground blade more prominent, but it still shows up better in the photo in the book.
I've also included a photo of the MRL Sword of Auray, adjusted so it's roughly similar to the Edward III sword photo. Note the edge on the MRL Auray. The hollow grinding may end before the edge, leaving a more robust edge, similar to that seen in the Edward III sword. I know it's very hard (actually, pretty much impossible) to judge such things from photos alone, but I'm only suggesting that the hollow ground blade on the Auray looks as if it might be fairly well done. The photos make me wonder, anyway! This is one of the points I hope to get feedback on; is the hollow grinding fairly well done for an MRL sword, or are the photos I've seen misleading?
Of course, all of this is rather moot. I wouldn't get the sword sharpened. I'm unlikely to ever cut with my swords anytime soon. I currently live in a rental home that shares its backyard with that of our landlady. Even though she's seems pretty accepting of my collection, I don't want to scare her other tenants that live downstairs from her. My dog, a scary-looking shepherd-chow mix, scares them enough! Plus, I live literally right across the street from a military installation. In this age of heightened security, I really don't think it's wise to flaunt my medieval arsenal within sight of a federal arsenal! 
You know what they say, discretion is the better part of valour!
Stay safe, and out of trouble!
 Attachment: 44.27 KB
Edge of Edward III sword, from Records of the Medieval Sword.
Attachment: 20.88 KB
Sword of Auray.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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I think this one might be a prime candidate for some artificial aging, that way the wood grip wouldn't look so out of place (it does to me too).
One of the reasons hollow grinding got such a bad rap in replica swords is that it was improperly done for years and still is on many lower-end products. It's actually a cheap way to make a blade, by simply running the blade between two belt sanders to establish the cross-section. Unfortunately this does not establish the proper edge geometry that Chad has already mentioned. It typically results in a very thin and fragile sword edge, hence the bad rap. Better quality recreations are now using a hollow grind that creates a slight shoulder at the edge, thereby adding strength to the geometry, as seen in most originals of the type.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Better quality recreations are now using a hollow grind that creates a slight shoulder at the edge, thereby adding strength to the geometry, as seen in most originals of the type. |
Yes, this seems to be apparent in the photos of the edge of the Edward III sword. I would like to know how MRL did the hollow grinding with the Auray.
| Quote: | | I think this one might be a prime candidate for some artificial aging, that way the wood grip wouldn't look so out of place |
Ack! Age my nice, shiny swords! My wife would kill me!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | When you say that the hollow grind often stops short of the edge, leaving a more robust edge, do you mean on historical swords, or on hollow-ground MRL swords?
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I meant on historical swords. MRL has only had a few hollow-ground blades show up in their catalogue, and I've never seen those reviewed or pictured in any depth. I'd love to know how MRL is actually doing it. Someone needs to buy one of these and file a report.
Looking at the MRL blade with that lighting it's hard to really tell. But I don't think I see the hollows stopping before the edge unless it's really gradual. In the properly done hollow-grinds you get an effect like two very wide very shallow fullers that run from mid-rib to close to the edge. There's then a slight bevel between the hollow and the edge. I don't see that in the MRL, but those pics make it really hard to tell.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Sean Flynt
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 05 Feb, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | I have a detailed closeup photo of the original's hilt, but the print is buried in a mountain of other prints. IIRC there are remnants of a leather wrap. I'd love to see somebody upgrade the Windlass version. It'd be a great Review and brief Workbench article. The ends of the cross need to be tapped over a bit to close them, as in the original. Otherwise, it looks great. I'd love to get my hands on one of these! |
So the grip was probably wrapped? Does sound like a condidate for a grip wrap then. I still like the idea of cord or wire, since I don't currenly have a grip wrapped in cord, or completely in wire.
I'm not worried about having an exact copy of the museum piece, so I wouldn't attempt to tap over the cross ends. I don't mind a little variation from the original, as long as it's within the realm of possibility.
I'll repeat here what other have said to me: Sean, maybe you should just go ahead and buy one. Then maybe you could do a "Workbench" article about what changes you may do to it!
I think I've decided to get the Auray, if things work out. Of course, I still have my eye on the Tiberias from the Kingdom of Heaven line. I'm still torn between the two (and, no, I couln't possibly get both). Both may have minor features that make them a bit less than completely accurate replicas of their types, but there are historical examples close to both swords (the sword of Tiberias is a bit like Type XIIIa., number 11, in Records of the Medieval Sword). Of course, with the Tiberias, there's the problem with the diamond-cross section at the point. It's really just a minor issue for me, since I can't afford to be too picky, if you know what I mean!
Decisions, decisions...
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 05 Feb, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | The Tiberias I handled briefly felt horrible in the hand. Maybe that seals the deal. |
Horrible for a hand-and-a-half? It's a broader blade with a larger hilt than a sword like the Auray, something like a smaller-than-typical great sword. I've read both that the Kingdom of Heaven swords are mostly "wrist-breakers", and that the Tiberias and a couple others weren't actually too bad. Unfortunately, there has been very little talk about handling of most of the Kingdom of Heaven swords. Too bad I missed a chance to get the sword of the King of Jerusalem. Brass hilt aside, I liked that one the most out of the Kingdom of Heaven line.
Hmm...the Auray may be more appealing after all.
(I know, you guys just want me to get the Auray because everyone seems curious about that one, but nobody seems willing to take the plunge! )
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 05 Feb, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | | Horrible for a hand-and-a-half? |
It handled horribly. The dynamics put the nodes in the wrong places and the thing vibrated like mad when swung. I shudder to think how it would have reacted to hitting anything. It was also quite hefty regarding weight distribution and just felt "clumsy". My disclaimer is that my report is based on the single example I handled. These things vary. Other copies may be better than the one I had in my hand.
| Quote: | | It's a broader blade with a larger hilt than a sword like the Auray, something like a smaller-than-typical great sword. |
Yes. The two swords are completely different from each other.
| Quote: | | I've read both that the Kingdom of Heaven swords are mostly "wrist-breakers", and that the Tiberias and a couple others weren't actually too bad. |
I would like to reiterate that these swords are likely to vary quite a bit from sample to sample.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 05 Feb, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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We handled several examples from the Kingdom on Heaven Line at the ' 05 Blade Show. Every one of them left a lot to be desired in the handling department. In terms of mechanics and mass distribution they simply weren't very good. If the choice was mine I'd go with the Auray.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 05 Feb, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Go with the Auray. 
It sound good and what compromises there are compared with the original are very acceptable for the price and a little home project work should make it very attractive in both financial and aesthetic sense.
As far as hollow grind: If there is no reinforced edge it's not really bad unless the two hollow ground bevels meet at an over thin edge. If they meet to form a reasonably thick edge before the grinding of a secondary bevel it should be fine even if less attractive than with the original.
If you have to sharpen it yourself or create the illusion of a sharp edge you could round that bevel to an appleseed appearance: Actually should be easier to do if you don't want anything more than a butterknife sharp edge.
A nice hand polished satin finish and a little restrained antiquing or aging of blade should blend any edge work into the main bevels nicely.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 05 Feb, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
As far as hollow grind: If there is no reinforced edge it's not really bad unless the two hollow ground bevels meet at an over thin edge. If they meet to form a reasonably thick edge before the grinding of a secondary bevel it should be fine even if less attractive than with the original. |
Hi Jean!
I would expect that the Auray has the standard MRL Edge, not really sharp, but more of an edge than a purpose-built blunt. This isn't really an issue for me since I'm unlikely to sharpen the sword. I don't really need a sharpened sword right now (I know, some of you are probably saying "but the only real sword is a sharp sword", but I am not likely to do any backyard cutting here).
I think I've decided on the Auray. Now I have to wait and see if we can indeed swing it right now!
Thanks to all for the input!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Mon 05 Feb, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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I think that the Auray is a very attractive sword, with a lot of potential, Richard. I, too, had been tempted by the Tiberias, with the closeout price down at $120. However, Nathan's report on its handling almost verges on 'scary'. So, thanks for that, Nathan!
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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