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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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 Posted: Thu 01 Feb, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Travis Canaday wrote: | | But for the most part these kind of large sweeping cuts aren't really a big part longsword fencing. Cutting exercises like this make perfect sense for JSA, because these kind of cutting motions are the primary method of attack. |
What? I hope I am just misunderstanding your statement, please correct me if so.
In any case, powerful full arm cuts, such as the Zornhau, are a major part of longsword fencing!
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Travis Canaday
Location: Overland Park, Kansas Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu 01 Feb, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Travis Canaday wrote: | | But for the most part these kind of large sweeping cuts aren't really a big part longsword fencing. Cutting exercises like this make perfect sense for JSA, because these kind of cutting motions are the primary method of attack. |
What? I hope I am just misunderstanding your statement, please correct me if so.
In any case, powerful full arm cuts, such as the Zornhau, are a major part of longsword fencing!
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
Yes powerful cuts are important in longsword fencing. However, so is thrusting... maybe more so. What I mean is that the object of many cutting actions is to close a line of attack and chamber a thrust. An orthodox zornhau doesn't just cut, it binds and threatens with the point (ends in pflug of langenort) if it doesn't outright strike the guy. I wouldn't call that a full arm cut such any old oberhau that ends in nebenhut or alber. I wouldn't refer to the other four meisterhau as being "powerful full arm cuts" either. They are powerful in that they defend as they attack. A krump, zwerch, schiel, or scheitel are not nearly as powerful as some big strong oberhau from above the head. Does that mean they aren't as good of "cuts"... no of course not.
My point is that longswords thrust and slice too!
Travis
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Chris Lampe
Location: United States Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Thu 01 Feb, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: |
Despite my love of cutting, however, I am in love with slender swords with awl like points...XVs and the more slender XVIIIs appeal to me more than any other sword types. There's something about them... |
This is a very interesting thread and it touches on a a couple of points that are of particular interest to me.
First, I'm not a fan of an awl-like point or even a great deal of profile taper. I prefer less profile taper and a more spatulate tip. I am also not a particular fan of the lenticular cross-section, preferring a flattened diamond. Unfortunately for me, the two traits I prefer tend to almost be mutually exclusive in medieval western European swords. I've recently come to realize that this is probably the primary factor in my obsession with the Chinese jian. It has a flattened-diamond cross-section and little profile taper. The jian also has another factor I strongly prefer and that is rigidity.
I have had the idea that a rigid sword might be at a disadvantage when cutting. No idea where I got that idea but it's a belief that has been firmly in my mind. When someone speculated that there was something about the XV's and XVIII's that made them good cutters Angus Trim responded that it was rigidity, an answer that surprised me. I'm now going to have to go back to those threads where swordmakers discuss what enables a sword to cut well and learn why this is the case.
Despite my preferences, I really like the long XVa's that Albion is coming out with but I was always somewhat cautious about their cutting performance. This thread has alleviated that concern and also showed me that my concerns were unfounded.
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Thu 01 Feb, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Lampe wrote: | I have had the idea that a rigid sword might be at a disadvantage when cutting. No idea where I got that idea but it's a belief that has been firmly in my mind. When someone speculated that there was something about the XV's and XVIII's that made them good cutters Angus Trim responded that it was rigidity, an answer that surprised me. I'm now going to have to go back to those threads where swordmakers discuss what enables a sword to cut well and learn why this is the case.
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I feel silly making the following statements in such esteemed company, especially when everything I am about to say I learned from one of the participants in this topic (Peter, Angus, Randal, etc.) but here goes nothing...
The idea that flexibility of swords is important to cutting performance is not entirely untrue, yet it is also true that the more rigid a sword is, the better it cuts. The confusion stems from the fact that flexibility is a by product of what makes a sword a good cutter....a wide, thin blade. Width is also a by product, however, the real factor here is thickness, or rather, lack of it. The thinner and sharper the sword, the less resistance it encounters when passing through a target. Width is necessary to a cutting sword for structural integrity...something cannot be both slender(profile) and thin, because then it would be weak. Being wide doesn't make it cut better...being thin does.
This is why slender swords have to be thick and rigid...you get strength either in width or thickness (or both, of course), and those swords suffer somewhat in cutting because being thick, they encounter more resistance when passing through the target. It's the thickness, not the slender shape, that makes them less cut oriented (although the slenderness can affect the edge geometry and therefore sharpness). Of course it also depends on what your're cutting.
A thin, wide sword is going to be flexible, which is where the idea that flexible swords make good cutters comes from. Flexibility is a by-product. Flexibility, however, hurts cutting performance because it creates exessive vibrations and flex on impact that rob the cut of power.
So, Peter, Angus, Randal...I hope I haven't messed anything up and have saved your fingers some mileage. 
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
Last edited by Michael Edelson on Thu 01 Feb, 2007 10:25 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Chris Lampe
Location: United States Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Thu 01 Feb, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Michael,
Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense. My initial reasoning as to why a rigid sword would be a good cutter had to with the fact that a more flexible blade might not focus as much energy on the target as a more rigid one. The thickness of the blade didn't really figure into my thinking. So, based on this the Talhoffer must be thicker, out near the CoP, than it looks. I've always assumed those XVa's were quite thin at that point.
I have an old Atrim type XVIII short-sword and the blade is about 1/16" thick just behind the point and I had assumed that a sword like the Talhoffer would have a similar amount of distal taper.
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Thu 01 Feb, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Lampe wrote: | Michael,
Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense. My initial reasoning as to why a rigid sword would be a good cutter had to with the fact that a more flexible blade might not focus as much energy on the target as a more rigid one. The thickness of the blade didn't really figure into my thinking. So, based on this the Talhoffer must be thicker, out near the CoP, than it looks. I've always assumed those XVa's were quite thin at that point.
I have an old Atrim type XVIII short-sword and the blade is about 1/16" thick just behind the point and I had assumed that a sword like the Talhoffer would have a similar amount of distal taper. |
The Talhoffer is 1/8" thick 2" from the tip (and varies little all the way to the tip), and 5/32" thick 5" from the tip. That makes it about twice as thick as the sword you described (at the tip). A little extra thickness goes a long way. It's almost a 1/4" thick in the middle of the blade, and about 1/3" at the cross.
These measurements are fairly accurate, but not as precises as they could be.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Fri 02 Feb, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Travis Canaday wrote: | Yes powerful cuts are important in longsword fencing. However, so is thrusting... maybe more so. What I mean is that the object of many cutting actions is to close a line of attack and chamber a thrust. An orthodox zornhau doesn't just cut, it binds and threatens with the point (ends in pflug of langenort) if it doesn't outright strike the guy. I wouldn't call that a full arm cut such any old oberhau that ends in nebenhut or alber. I wouldn't refer to the other four meisterhau as being "powerful full arm cuts" either. They are powerful in that they defend as they attack. A krump, zwerch, schiel, or scheitel are not nearly as powerful as some big strong oberhau from above the head. Does that mean they aren't as good of "cuts"... no of course not.
My point is that longswords thrust and slice too! |
Travis
Thanks for clearing that up. Yes, thrust and slice are a major part of longsword. One of my fellow members of the ARMA DFW study group has a Talhoffer and at a recent test cutting practice all of us enjoyed thrusting with the Talhoffer. On many targets there was almost no feedback to the hands when the point entered the target. Although not in the same class as the Albion Barons on hand, we too found the Talhoffer to be a nice cutter.
At the WMAW in October 2006 I was able to observe many people cutting a Zornhau as you describe and I must say that I was not impressed. In ARMA members all of the master cuts are performed with a lot of power. I would like to discuss this more but I do not wish to high-jack this thread.
Again, thanks for your comments,
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Michael Edelson
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Fri 02 Feb, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Michael
Our primary cutting targets are built with a 1/2 inch plastic pipe wrapped in many layers of newspaper with an outer wrapping of duct tape. The targets are then soaked in water hours before use. These targets give a fair representation of cutting an arm or a leg in that they give us feed back on blade alignment and required power for a good cut. Of course, if we could afford it we would cut on nothing but fresh meat. A number of square targets (without the plastic pipe core) were built for thusting. In all cases the targets hang freely from a light rope. As one might expect, the Talhoffer's point went through these targets with almost no effort. We also practiced on a large number of melons and plactic bottles. The only targets that were a problem for the Talhoffer were empty plastic bottles, which just when flying when thrusted. We would have loved to have done some thrusting test with mail covering the targets but the owner of the Talhoffer has limits to which he will allow his friends to play with his sword. 
I currently own an Albion Baron, which I love. My next sword will be an Albion Talhoffer.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Travis Canaday
Location: Overland Park, Kansas Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Fri 02 Feb, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: |
At the WMAW in October 2006 I was able to observe many people cutting a Zornhau as you describe and I must say that I was not impressed. In ARMA members all of the master cuts are performed with a lot of power. I would like to discuss this more but I do not wish to high-jack this thread.
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Randall,
I don't think I understand what you mean. I don't know what you saw at WMAW, so I can't tell if we are talking about the same thing. I agree the master cuts should be performed with power. Of course. What I said was that the master cuts aren't going to have the power as some big over the head oberhau. A zornhau which ends in a hanger (as described by Liechtenauer, Ringeck, etc.) to set up a thrust, isn't going to have the power of a zornhau/oberhau that's goal is to just cut down into nebenhut such as in doing test cuts. Why does it matter if your cut is a little less powerful now that your opponent has the point thrust in them? Another point I was trying to make was that these swords were never made to cleave through things... they were meant to cut exposed areas (head/hands) and thrust.
Sorry to get off topic.
Travis
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Feb, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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I cut some more today, focusing on proper technique (as taught by Christian Tobler)...sword first, sloping footwork, maintaing balance, no cocking back, etc.
I used an Atrim 1508 and the Talhoffer. I was not able to cut through a full mat with either sword using proper, non-telegraphing technique as described above. I was able to cleave a half-mat with both swords using this technique, but only on the first cut when the mats were fresh and long. Subsequent strikes resulted in gashes.
On the full mat, both swords inflicted terrible gashes. The 1508 cut about a foot into the mat, consistently. For some reason, I was not able to maintain the angle when cutting this way, which turned into almost vertical and cut straight down the mats (and therefore did not sever the mat despite a gash more than deep enough to do so). The Talhoffer cut about 8 to 9" into the mat, which also would have been enough to sever it if not for the angle change.
The point is...any of those gruesome gashes will seriously wound your opponent and end the fight, without a big overcommitted telegraphing cocking-back cut. Despite not having cut any full mats in half like I did the other day, I felt much better overall...much better, and much more satisfied. On reviewing the videos, I was pleased to see that there was no telegraphing, no bending forward after the cut, etc. Nice, clean, sword-first cuts. And, my foot landed at the same time as the sword most of the time. A good day.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Travis Canaday
Location: Overland Park, Kansas Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Fri 02 Feb, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: |
The point is...any of those gruesome gashes will seriously wound your opponent and end the fight, without a big overcommitted telegraphing cocking-back cut. Despite not having cut any full mats in half like I did the other day, I felt much better overall...much better, and much more satisfied. On reviewing the videos, I was pleased to see that there was no telegraphing, no bending forward after the cut, etc. Nice, clean, sword-first cuts. And, my foot landed at the same time as the sword most of the time. A good day. |
That's awesome.
Travis
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Feb, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks.
That's not to say I don't believe in cutting with more power sometimes....but compared to cutting with the sword moving first and not cokcing back, the power part comes easy and is much less satisfying.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 02 Feb, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | Thanks.
That's not to say I don't believe in cutting with more power sometimes....but compared to cutting with the sword moving first and not cokcing back, the power part comes easy and is much less satisfying. |
Any chance to see the videos? i would love to show my guys what some good cutting form looks like
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Feb, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | Thanks.
That's not to say I don't believe in cutting with more power sometimes....but compared to cutting with the sword moving first and not cokcing back, the power part comes easy and is much less satisfying. |
Any chance to see the videos? i would love to show my guys what some good cutting form looks like
J |
Never!
I'm way too shy.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | Thanks.
That's not to say I don't believe in cutting with more power sometimes....but compared to cutting with the sword moving first and not cokcing back, the power part comes easy and is much less satisfying. |
Any chance to see the videos? i would love to show my guys what some good cutting form looks like
J |
Never!
I'm way too shy. |
Hey man, HEMA is a cooperative experience, sharing your efforts is a good way to get constructive criticism and help teach other people techniques. I've learned a great deal from watching videos of other WMA groups and individuals, in spite of only being an intermediate level practitioner myself I've posted plenty of vids of me and other members of our local group, and a lot of people have given us good advice as a result and contacted us saying they learned things... besides as long as you have a helmet on you always have plausible deniability  (and you can also edit out the really bad stuff) I mean there are a few vids of me online which kind of make me cringe when I watch them, because we filmed them a couple of years ago and we have learned a lot since then.
But I think opening yourself to a little "public" scruitny is a really healthy exorcise in a lot of ways, a greater degree of openness and a more cooperative spirit is one of the things i really like about HEMA compared to traditional Eastern Martial Arts (as practiced around here anyway).
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I know.
Maybe next time we'll shoot the videos with the intention of sharing. These are really bad...the guy shooting them has never used a video camera in his life....there's not a shot where most of me is not cut off, or the camera doesn't woble, or the guy doesn't turn the camera on himself and make silly comments doing a poor Blair Witch impersonation.
They're fine for me to analyze my technique, but they're not something I want to share.
I do plan to have videos on our website eventually. Once I have something presentable, I'll share them. And I won't even wear a helmet.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 03 Feb, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: Fencing |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | Yeah, I know.
Maybe next time we'll shoot the videos with the intention of sharing. These are really bad...the guy shooting them has never used a video camera in his life....there's not a shot where most of me is not cut off, or the camera doesn't woble, or the guy doesn't turn the camera on himself and make silly comments doing a poor Blair Witch impersonation.
They're fine for me to analyze my technique, but they're not something I want to share.
I do plan to have videos on our website eventually. Once I have something presentable, I'll share them. And I won't even wear a helmet. |
Thats the spirit! The more resources like that we have available the faster all of us will learn.
I know what you mean about the video, all of ours are like that. I do my best to edit out the fart jokes and the panoramic views of peoples feet and the sky, the conversations about politics and last nights pub crawl, but it still looks hella rough. Not to mention it seems like every time we actually have the camera ready to go and charged up were always just goofing around and I never remember to even think about using correct form. (It should come naturally i know but hey, I haven't seen enough of other peoples practice videos yet to learn to do it right!)
For the time being I just put up what i have that 's at least not utterly humiliatingly bad (just half a step up from that), and gradually I try to improve it. If anything having the crappy looking stuff out there on youtube for people to mock is an incentive to put out something a bit better next time. (it's also funny how what impresses neophytes is utterly opposite of what impresses people who know something about it, and vice versa... our cutting vids are in the former category, our form is awful and all we are cutting are super easy water jugs, but people with no knowlege of swords or cutting are amazed by it, I tell 'em my sword is made from a hundred million layers of adamantine folded over and over in the heart of a volcano by mountain dwarves on Crystal meth working continuously over a period of ten years...I figure it's good for countering the mythology of western swords being marginally sharpened iron crowbars that weigh fifty pounds... )
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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