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William P
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 Posted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Beal wrote: | | William P wrote: | | one of the swords has a FINGER RING built into the base of the blade, which i think is period? |
There are Danish late iron age (aka Viking age) examples that have this feature, so yes. |
http://www.ucforums.com/showthread.php?t=4482 just to clarify the ring is part of the blade... material, a hole is forged into the base. heres a photo of the nazgul blades
 Attachment: 24.52 KB
nazgul weapons: from top to bottom
wittchkings sword, morgul dagger, regular ringraith sword, shorter blade.
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Similar ring swords are real, yes. Though they don't look exactly like that one.
But this is a Fantasy movie series, and a very entertaining one at that. I grew up with reading Lord of the Rings and Bilbo, I watched the first movie 6 times in the cinema. I never once though it had to be realistic or anything but fun?
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I never once though it had to be realistic or anything but fun? |
Realistic only to the point of suspension of disbelief, or at least as realistic as the books.
I would have preferred staying closer in line with the books.
Orcs were not pike users in the books - even the Uruk-Hai.
As far as the effects of the Rohirrm charge, they both caught the enemey unaware. They idea of an enemy appearing at you rear or flank, and suprising you a bit can be very effective.
Pikes are relatively useless without a solid formation - and the idea of being suprised in the flank or rear may well have at least screwed up the orc formations or worst routed them initially. Gandalf's light on his staff in the Helms Deep charge would have likley also had much to do with wrecking the Pike formation prior to the charge.
I would have rather had no Elves at Helms Deep, Gondorians in mail, one handed swords insterad of two, et.c. etc. The Mumaks would have been more believable as well if they were elephant sized or at least close, not skyscraper sized.
Legolas was the worst though, between the shield or mumak surfing, 2 arrows at a time, etc.
Elves were supposed to be lithe and quicker than humans, but that could have been shown in a much better way IMO.
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Dan Dickinson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Johan Gemvik wrote: | Similar ring swords are real, yes. Though they don't look exactly like that one.
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Do either of you gentlemen have pics of such iron age swords? I'm afraid I can't picture them. I can think of bronze age Danish swords with built in rings on the blades, but I'm pretty sure those are some sort of suspension ring.
Thanks,
Dan
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Phil D.
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| Posted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that the blade is based on a French XV sword in the metropolitan Museum.
You can find a pic of it in "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor"
By George Cameron Stone...page 592.
Here is an online pic(go to page 592)but it is much clearer in the actual book.
http://books.google.com/books?id=J5PgapzD6FoC...mp;f=false
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur
"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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William M
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| Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Hi all,
Just thought I would share this photo I took at the Leeds armoury. At the time I thought it looked very much like the Elvish two handed swords.
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Austin D.G. Hill
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| Posted: Fri 07 Oct, 2011 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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hello
i found a medieval painting with a picture of something that looks a little like the elven swords used in the battle at Helms Deep.
it was on another topic a while ago so i just posted the link.
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...&b.gif
AUSTIN DANIEL GLENN HILL
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Gary Teuscher wrote: | | Orcs were not pike users in the books - even the Uruk-Hai. |
They were! LotR mentioned pikes among Saruman's force (probably in one of the Appendices--I don't quite remember where, and am too lazy to take the book out of the shelf, but I'm pretty sure it's there). The more detailed account of the early encounters in Saruman's invasion of Rohan (Theodred at the ford, etc.) in Unfinished Tales goes into greater details and explicitly mentions pikes in several places. Of course, the Rohirrim in the books didn't win by charging these Orcish pikes headlong like in the movie, but that's a different matter altogether.
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The more detailed account of the early encounters in Saruman's invasion of Rohan (Theodred at the ford, etc.) in Unfinished Tales goes into greater details and explicitly mentions pikes in several places. |
I have not read this, would be interested how and where it mentions the pikes.
One thing about Tolkien - he seemed to do much of his writing as if he was writing in period.
He never mentions longbows I don't think, uses terms lance/spear interchangably I think.
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Elnathan Barnett
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Teuscher wrote: | I have not read this, would be interested how and where it mentions the pikes.
One thing about Tolkien - he seemed to do much of his writing as if he was writing in period.
He never mentions longbows I don't think, uses terms lance/spear interchangably I think. |
In "The Battles of the Fords of Isen" he says that when King Theoden's son Theodred heard that Saruman was massing troops to attack, he left troops to guard the fords and took eight mounted companies and a company of archers to attack Saruman's army as it was mustering. Saruman had laid a trap, however, and Theodred, after scattering the enemy vanguard, found that Saruman's main force were waiting "behind trenches manned by pikemen." Tolkien adds that Theodred and his leading company was "brought to a stand and almost surrounded" by flanking forces before being extricated by the rest of his force. He then retreated back to the fords while the orcs pressed them closely. (Unfinished Tales, 356-7)
That is the only reference I can find for pikes in this section. He also mentions a unit of orcs or orc-men armed with axes and armed in mail which were sent to kill Theodred.
Therfor he seide to hem, But now he that hath a sachel, take also and a scrippe; and he that
hath noon, selle his coote, and bigge a swerd.
- Luke 22:36, John Wycliffe's translation AD 1384
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Austin D.G. Hill
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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there is some mention to long bows, it is not in the Lord of The Rings, but in The Hobbit it talks about the men of the lake Esgaroth using longbows to kill Smaug the dragon. Also the king of the eagles talks about how all men shoot at them with their long bows of Yew.
AUSTIN DANIEL GLENN HILL
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Paul Watson
Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 395
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| Posted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 12:13 am Post subject: |
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There is mention in Unfinished Tales, The Disaster of The Gladden Fields of Numenorean Long Bows made of hollow steel.
Also the bow that Legolas recieves from Galadriel is noted as being longer than his orignial bow.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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William P
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Thu 17 Nov, 2011 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: | | i have just realised that some of the swords given by aragorn to the hobbits resemble the swiss baselard in terms of the hilt design. |
I noticed that too.
The only thing that really bothered me in the movies, because it made no functional sense, is that the 'Horse Lords' of Rohan wore shorter viking-ish swords instead of longer cavalry swords (there were plenty of longswords in the hands of infantry in the other cultures so you'd really think those horseman would catch on). Someone likely noted that already; I just had to get that out of my system.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Thu 17 Nov, 2011 6:36 am Post subject: |
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One of the things that bothered me was the warfare, especially sieges such as Gondor. In the book the siege could have been taken right out of a chronicle. Women and children sent out and men remain. I am sure PJ wanted to keep them there for theatrical appeal but Tolkien knew his medieval warfare and the small changes like this made a difference. Generally PJ did a good job.
RPM
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Thu 17 Nov, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | One of the things that bothered me was the warfare, especially sieges such as Gondor. In the book the siege could have been taken right out of a chronicle. Women and children sent out and men remain. I am sure PJ wanted to keep them there for theatrical appeal but Tolkien knew his medieval warfare and the small changes like this made a difference. Generally PJ did a good job.
RPM |
He also knew the classics well enough to know what horses do when they smell elephants for the first time ... sigh. Making the mumakil giant I can understand, but the "riding between their legs and hamstringing them" scene was gratuitous.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Johan Gemvik wrote: | | Similar ring swords are real, yes. Though they don't look exactly like that one. |
Yeah, and I think they're mostly from a much later period, closer to the Renaissance than the Iron Age. For example, there are the baselard-hilted swords in this thread; I also recall seeing an Italian arming sword, a type XIV or XVI IIRC, with a clamshell pommel and a similar ring cut into the blade.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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This is a standard topic
