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Guy Thomas
Location: Tallahassee, Fla. Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: Helms- padded or suspended? |
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Hello all, man I haven't posted here in a while! My son just bought a fairly decent Norman style helm which came lined with just a leather suspension system but no padding. You've got to like a 13 year old who spends his Christmas money on armor!  Would a nasal helm like this nomally not have had any padding and were leather suspension systems the norm? I realize that few actual helms of this kind have survived but this has got me thinking. Did helms normally get padding or did they just "float"?
Guy Thomas
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Guy,
Some of the replicas nasal helms I've seen photos of have the typical split leather liner, sort of like the suspension system in a construction-type hard hat. This is also how they reconstruct the liner in the Osprey colour plates of Norman Knight 950-1204 AD by Christopher Gravett, except that they depict the liner as being made of "triangles" (gussets may be a better word) of padded canvas stitched to a leather lining strap. Many if not most of the surviving nasal helms seem to have a series of holes around the rim, suggesting this sort of arrangement (either a leather suspension cut into gussets and rivetted around the rim, or a fabric liner cut in the same fashion and sewn to a leather lining strap). The helm would then probably have had some sort of laces tied under the chin to hold it in place.
There are some 14th century effigies that actually show a suspension system similar to this. One can be seen inside the great helm shown on the effigy of Ulrich de Werd, Landgraf of Lower Alsace, circa 1345. David Nicolle interprets this as split leather laced at the crown. It could also be lightly padded fabric. Whatever the material used, the suspension system is cut into triangular gussets held together at the crown by lacing. This would enable the suspension to be adjusted for fit. The helm of Edward the Black Prince shows traces of a suspension system; fragments of the lining still remained in the original helm.
Here is what Oakeshott said in The Archaeology of Weapons regarding great helm linings:
| Ewart Oakeshott wrote: |
Its weight was supported by a fitted lining, made by fixing a deep leather band, cut into a series of gussets and pulled together with a cord at the top, to a strap fixed horizontally around the inside of the helm by rivets joining the upper and lower plates. Illustrations of this method of lining helms is given by many tomb effigies, and in the helm of the Black Prince in Canterbury Cathedral fragments of the original lining still survive. |
There are other possibilities for lining or padding a helm; a lost effigy from the Temple Church in London, as well as a few other period depictions, show a padded roll attached to a fabric coif. These suggest that a padded coif sometimes served as the padding and perhaps suspension of a helm. However, these are all later than the nasal helm.
I've actually tried both a leather and a cloth suspension. I lined my MRL Crusader Great Helm with a leather suspension, and my MRL War Hat with a thinly padded canvas suspension (I removed their thin leather suspension out of the war hat). Both work, although the fabric suspension is more comfortable. I think the leather suspension might work better with a padded coif; my head is so big (no kidding - it truly is) that I have trouble wearing a lot under my helm.
I hope this helped!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Hello again!
I remembered that I took some photos of my lining job on my MRL War Hat, as well as a cheap basinet (the workmanship was rather poor, but it looks alright covered in fabric). Both are made from "Wal-Mart special" canvas lined with cotton batting. If I was to replace them with more historically correct linings, I would use self-cloured linen canvas and line them with either wool, horsehair, or perhaps cotton wool. I don't really have the time or money to make things up to living history standards. However, the cut of the linings should be right. They both work. I made the one for the bascinet first, so it didn't fit as nicely as the one for the war hat. The bascinet does show how the lining is stitched to a leather strip rivetted around the rim of the helmet. Changing the lining in the war hat helped with the fit; it was a bit tight prior to my reworking. The "ear flaps" may not be historically accurate, but they help keep the war hat from wobbling too terribly (a problem with the war hat's original suspension system). These could be just as easily made out of leather, but there are some issues with leather (lack of wicking, etc.).
(Sorry, I don't have any photos right now of my leather lining in my MRL Crusader Great Helm. Maybe I'll snap a shot or two later.)
Here are the photos:
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Bascinet suspension lining.
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War hat suspension lining.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Torsten F.H. Wilke
Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Hey, nice work on the lining, Richard! There's nothing wrong with ear-flaps on a cold battle morning, lol...
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote: | | Hey, nice work on the lining, Richard! There's nothing wrong with ear-flaps on a cold battle morning, lol... |
Torsten,
Thanks for the compliment! I'm amazed how much sewing actually goes into making armour usable. I've had to learn how to sew leather and cloth. I managed to acquire an old "how to sew" book from my mother-in-law which has helped tremendously with my projects. Having proper sewing techniques definitely makes the construction of linings and padded garments much easier. There's a lot of padded garments used for medieval armour, especially for transitional armour of the 14th century.
The ear flaps help keep the war hat stable. It's brim tended to make it wobble badly when it was attached with a single leather thong on each side. (Something to also keep in mind with a Norman nasal helm - they probably had a bifurcated strap or lace that attached to four points on the sides of the helmet.) It tended to pull on my neck (sort of a "see-saw" effect). It was fairly uncomfortable. I looked at how places like The Mercenary's Tailor made their suspension lining, and it inspired me to make the "ear flaps". Since the laces are now attached in four places, the war hat is more stable. I didn't like the fit of my war hat when I first purchased it, but it fits better now. I still can't wear much underneath it, though.
By the way, does anyone know if war hats ever had aventails, or were worn with tippets instead of coifs? I could never get my head inside the war hat while wearing both a padded and a mail coif!
Speaking of The Mercenary's Tailor, here's a link to their helmet suspension kit. I won't swear by its historical authenticity, but again it can give you an idea about the general form of these things:
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...ucts_id=91
I hope this helped!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again!
Okay, I managed to snap a shot of the inside of my MRL Crusader Great Helm. This one doesn't fit as nicely as the others; the helm itself was constructed strangely, and I had to trim a bit off the back plate so it wouldn't gouge into my shoulders (which was quite the task since I'm no metal worker). This was only my second attempt at a helmet suspension liner; my first was a temporary one in the same helm of thick suede (something to give me some sort of liner until I got better vegetable tanned leather). It didn't fit as well as it could have near the front of the helm, but it works. (I think my lace could use a bit of tightening as well!) My attachment method would make purists cringe; I used Chicago Screws (threaded rivets) since I made a preliminary lining that I wanted to eventually replace. I would replace these with more permanent rivets if this helm was to actually see sparring use. At least it gives a general idea of the form of a leather suspension lining. I might add some padding someday; the leather's a bit slick.
Here's the picture:
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Crusader Great Helm suspension lining.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again!
I knew some of this had been discussed before, at least in regards to great helms. I found the thread after a bit of searching.
Here's the link:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...met+lining
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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We have so few surviving examples of this type of helmet and anything is really just an educated guess. I would say, yes, the helmet itself would have had a type of suspension system rather than padding directly between the helmet and the wearers head. If padding was desired a padded arming cap could have been worn underneath the helmet. When I wear mine I do so over a mail coif with a padded arming cap beneath the coif.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | We have so few surviving examples of this type of helmet and anything is really just an educated guess. I would say, yes, the helmet itself would have had a type of suspension system rather than padding directly between the helmet and the wearers head. If padding was desired a padded arming cap could have been worn underneath the helmet. When I wear mine I do so over a mail coif with a padded arming cap beneath the coif. |
Quite right! However, it is a perfectly valid point to use the later suspensions in Great Helms and bascinets to guess at what may have been used in the Norman style nasal helmets. The trace of possible rivets (rivets holes) in many of the surviving nasal helmets certainly suggests this sort of suspension system.
The nasal helmets would more than likely be worn over a padded and a mail coif, just like Patrick said. This could mean that further padding in the suspension liner was unnecessary, but it is possible that they were constructed of lightly padded fabric, just like in my bascinet and war hat, and in the colour plate in the Osprey book about the Norman knight. I have found that a fabric liner conforms a bit better to the head, giving a slightly better fit to the helmet. Granted, this is on my later war hat (which I can't really use with other protection because of my big head - this doesn't mean it wasn't used with a padded and a mail coif). Still, it's a point worth considering when creating a suspension liner. I don't think we can say for sure what material was used in the suspension liner of nasal helmets of the Norman era.
There is some evidence to suggest that fabric liners were used in much later helmets. There is a photo of a quilted skull lining (of canvas?) padded with tow from a 16th century close-helmet in Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight by David Edge and John Miles Paddock. It is still sewn to fragments of the lining strap that was once rivetted inside the helmet. It's cut into roughly triangular gussets at the top. Each "point" of the gusset bears an eyelet through which a cord or thong was once laced and tied. This is obviously much later than a nasal helmet, but when it was intact within the helmet it must have looked similar to what is seen inside the helms on certain 14th century effigies, and may give us an idea about how it was done in the Norman period. If it worked in the 16th century, and possibly in the 14th century, it probably worked in the 11th and 12th centuries.
These fabric linings aren't always thickly padded (if you look at the photos of mine, you can see that it's just thinly padded), so it is possible if things fit properly that you can wear a fabric liner with a padded and a mail coif. The rivets of the mail may had a tendency to snag on the fabric, but these things could be replaced when worn. Also, there is a precedent for fabric worn over mail; there are some depictions of gambesons worn over mail in the Maciejowski Bible, and of course a surcoat was worn over mail.
Leather is certainly an option for what to use in a suspension lining, and it might be a bit tougher. I imagine that our ancestors did what worked for them, and there probably wasn't one standard material used.
I just wanted to elaborate on what's already been said!
By the way, Patrick, do you have any photos of your helmet lining that you could share, or have you already posted these in an earlier thread? I would love to see the inside of your helmet! (Any excuse to see your beautifully painted helmet!   )
I hope this helped!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Quite right! However, it is a perfectly valid point to use the later suspensions in Great Helms and bascinets to guess at what may have been used in the Norman style nasal helmets. The trace of possible rivets (rivets holes) in many of the surviving nasal helmets certainly suggests this sort of suspension system. |
Very true and I wasn't disputing you Richard. I think it's a good way to surmise how the suspension systems in these helmets may have looked. As I see it, these suspension systems would have served the same purpose as the system in a modern hard hat. If a padded suspension was used it was more likely for the comfort of the wearer rather than an aid in shock absorbtion, as most of the later would have been achieved by the void caused by the helmet riding slighty off of the head, because of the suspension. I should point out that I've been soundly whacked on the head while wearing both types and a suspension system is far more effective than direct padding, ie. padding glued directly to the helmet.
| Quote: | | By the way, Patrick, do you have any photos of your helmet lining that you could share, or have you already posted these in an earlier thread? I would love to see the inside of your helmet! (Any excuse to see your beautifully painted helmet! ) |
This viking helmet of mine has a slightly different variation.
The helmet fits tighter to my head than the nasal helm but it does ride up far enought to create a void between head and helm.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
Very true and I wasn't disputing you Richard. |
Oh, I wasn't trying to imply you were disputing what I said; I just wanted to elaborate on it. I tend to go on, if you haven't already noticed!
Thanks for the photos. I've got a couple questions regarding the nasal helm. Why the rivetted cross at the top? Is this so the head will only go in so far, ensuring it won't touch the crown of the helmet? I've never seen one quite like that before, I I was wondering if there was a functional reason for the cross at the crown. Otherwise, it's similar to other suspension linings of that style.
Another question; how well does the helmet stay put with a single strap? I noticed that the ends attached to the helmet aren't bifurcated. Does it stay in place, or does it have a tendency to twist? Is there any difference between how well the straps function on your Norman style nasal helmet versus your Viking style helmet? I notice that the Viking helmet has bifurcated ends.
One more question; do you have any preference between the two strap systems? In other words, do you prefer buckled straps or tied straps? It looks like the Norman helmet has a buckle, while the Viking looks like it would be tied. I personally tried a buckle on my MRL Crusader Great Helm, but it was a pain to buckle it while wearing it! I found that tied thongs tend to make for a more adjustable fit. Maybe a buckled strap would work on my War Hat, but I like the adjustability of tied laces. Do you find any difference between the fit and feel of either style?
Yes, the hardhat analogy is a good one. I think if it works for modern construction workers, it would have worked for medieval warriors. I never quite understood the SCA's penchant for closed-cell foam glued inside a helmet as a helmet lining. (I actually had one SCA member, my sister-in-law's former boyfriend, suggest that I do just that with my MRL Crusader Great Helm - I pointed out that what I tried to do was a bit more historical than that, even if I strayed in terms of materials).
Thanks again for posting the photos!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | | I've got a couple questions regarding the nasal helm. Why the rivetted cross at the top? Is this so the head will only go in so far, ensuring it won't touch the crown of the helmet? I've never seen one quite like that before, I I was wondering if there was a functional reason for the cross at the crown. Otherwise, it's similar to other suspension linings of that style. |
I believe it's there for added reinforcement, so your head can only go so far in. On that particular helmet the suspension is made as a unit, then glued into the helmet. I've never seen an historic example with a feature like that either. While the suspension system is really glued in there, to the extent that I'd damage it taking it out, I'll probably put some rivets around the rim at some point, just because.
| Quote: | | how well does the helmet stay put with a single strap? I noticed that the ends attached to the helmet aren't bifurcated. Does it stay in place, or does it have a tendency to twist? Is there any difference between how well the straps function on your Norman style nasal helmet versus your Viking style helmet? I notice that the Viking helmet has bifurcated ends. |
I really haven't seen a difference in security concerning the single strap v. the bifurcated type. Once I get the arming cap and coif on it's a pretty good fit with the helm so it all stays pretty snug. Aesthetically I prefer the single strap since the forward part of the bifurcated strap always seems to pooch out, making for a strange look.
| Quote: | | do you have any preference between the two strap systems? In other words, do you prefer buckled straps or tied straps? It looks like the Norman helmet has a buckle, while the Viking looks like it would be tied. I personally tried a buckle on my MRL Crusader Great Helm, but it was a pain to buckle it while wearing it! I found that tied thongs tend to make for a more adjustable fit. Maybe a buckled strap would work on my War Hat, but I like the adjustability of tied laces. Do you find any difference between the fit and feel of either style? |
I've worn a great helm a few times and it would be a pain with a buckle. I don't really have a preference. I actually find the buckle on the nasal helm to be quicker, of course that may only be because I've worn it quite a bit more.
| Quote: | | I never quite understood the SCA's penchant for closed-cell foam glued inside a helmet as a helmet lining. (I actually had one SCA member, my sister-in-law's former boyfriend, suggest that I do just that with my MRL Crusader Great Helm - I pointed out that what I tried to do was a bit more historical than that, even if I strayed in terms of materials). |
When you consider the SCA used to use freon cans for helmets it's understandable. That's no slam to the SCA participants here, in fact I'm dating myself by admitting I remember "back in the day"!
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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The cross strap suspension in Patricks first helmet is used in several 16th century close helms in The Mets reserve collection.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | The cross strap suspension in Patricks first helmet is used in several 16th century close helms in The Mets reserve collection. |
Thanks for that information, Alan. That's really interesting. It suggests that there is a good reason for the cross-strap being there. It gives another historical option for the style of the lining.
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
On that particular helmet the suspension is made as a unit, then glued into the helmet. I've never seen an historic example with a feature like that either. While the suspension system is really glued in there, to the extent that I'd damage it taking it out, I'll probably put some rivets around the rim at some point, just because. |
I wonder if linings were ever glued into the inside of helmets historically, or were they always attached by a rivetted lining strap? I know there is some evidence, based on the placement of paired holes, that linings may have been laced into some great helms (although these holes may just as easily have been used for the attachment of crests and other heraldic devices). Does every single surviving medieval helmet show traces of rivets along the edge, either holes or existing rivets, or were some devoid of rivets? I guess I just came up with another subject to research!
I guess glue wouldn't be as strong as rivets in the long run, but I suspect that a glued-in lining would hold up in a battle or two. That may be good enough for some warriors who didn't see a lot of action.
There is the possibility that some linings may have been sewn in along a series of small holes around the rim of the helmet. Again, this may be speculation, but I seem to recall that some helmets (some bascinets, if I recall correctly) had fairly small and close-set holes placed along the edge. This may indicate that the lining was sewn directly onto the edge, rather than sewn onto a rivetted lining strap. I'll have to dig around and see what I come up with.
| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | When you consider the SCA used to use freon cans for helmets it's understandable. That's no slam to the SCA participants here, in fact I'm dating myself by admitting I remember "back in the day"! |
I used to have some contact with the local SCA when I sold my artwork at the annual medieval fair that was put on by the nearby cathedral. Some members definitely blurred the line between fantasy and history, while others had amazing kits. I remember their "knight" had an amazing velvet-covered cuirass. It looked very similar to surviving 14th century armours. He had a nice hound skull bascinet and limb protection to go with it. (I was jealous!) I'll admit that I've actually found some interesting practical information about armour on some SCA-related web sites.
My sister-in-law floated in their circle; I was a bit of an outsider. Her former boyfriend commented during his one visit to my home that most of my armour was too light; I don't think he quite got the idea of gambesons, or layered armour in general!
I got a chuckle out of the announcer when they did their fashion show during the fair; she stated that they depicted the middle ages "as they should have been"! As long as they don't try to pass off everything they do as historical fact, and they have fun doing it, then who am I to slam them? Aren't we all in it for fun?
Heck, I cut up some old steel cookie sheets to make my covered cuisses and a pair of brigandine-style gauntlets (sort of based on some of the gauntlets in a few of the Osprey colour plates and my interpretation of a few gauntlets seen in The Romance of Alexander in the Bodleian Library). I use "Wal-Mart special" fabric for most of my projects. I've used rapid rivets in the past because that's what I had easy access to. Many of my hardened leather pieces are made using the wax-hardening process - I have been learning as I go, and I probably will not use that method again. Some living history purists would take issue with my choice of materials and methods, but we all do what's within our means and capabilities. I probably would never make a "plastic brigandine", but I can see the use for such a thing if you're just doing general presentations. Since nobody is ever going to see what's inside unless you take it off, what's it really matter?
I think I diverged a bit from the topic. It's late, and I'm rambling.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Torsten F.H. Wilke
Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Richard F. wrote: | Quote: | | There is the possibility that some linings may have been sewn in along a series of small holes around the rim of the helmet. Again, this may be speculation, but I seem to recall that some helmets (some bascinets, if I recall correctly) had fairly small and close-set holes placed along the edge. This may indicate that the lining was sewn directly onto the edge, rather than sewn onto a rivetted lining strap. |
Richard, I believe that the circumferential row of minute holes along the edges of many bascinets was meant for attaching the mail aventails, link by link with a retaining wire, if that is what you are referring to...
Another question... Weren't great helms generally worn over bascinet style or conical style helms, with a padded donut/ring used as an in-between?
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote: | | Another question... Weren't great helms generally worn over bascinet style or conical style helms, with a padded donut/ring used as an in-between? |
Maybe, probably, sometimes. They definitely used a smaller helmet, the possible predecessor of the bascinet, under the great helm. There are a few depictions of medieval knights with globular coifs that probably indicates a small hemispherical cap worn under the coif. I'm not sure if these were always worn under the great helm, it's possible that the helm was worn with a padded and mail coif alone, without the small "skull cap" type cervelliere. It has been suggested that the decorative orle sometimes worn with later 14th century bascinets evolved out of the padded ring worn between the helm and the smaller cervelliere/bascinet.
Here's what's said about this in Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight:
| John Miles Paddock wrote: |
The great helm was worn with a padded arming cap, worn either over or under a mail coif. Two forms are known. The more usual one is simply a heavily quilted version of the civilian coif; rather less common is the variety depicted on the front of the Wells Cathedral, c. 1230, which is an arming cap with an additional roll of padding set about the brow of the wearer. This roll would ease the weight of the helmet off the top of the head and help to spread it rather more evenly on the skull.
The conical helmet, with or without nasal, continued to be used by the knight until the 1250s but was increasingly replaced by a domed version, the most popular form of which was known as the cervelliere or bascinet. This was a small hemispherical skull cap which was often worn beneath the mail coif, as can be seen from the outline of contemporary monuments. This was increasingly worn under the great helm or simply on its own over the coif. |
It's getting really late right now, so I won't look up anything else tonight (this morning).
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Some of the 17th century helmets I worked with had integral padded suspension. One what a type of very soft leather that was very padded inside a lobstertail helmet. Even the cheek guards were padded so. I have some helmets that with the arming cap inside fit very well without a leather suspension system. I have wanted to make one of those flat topped armign caps and see how they work alone in a great helm for sometime.
I generally agree with blair for the earlier period helmets. The leather alone is not to comfortable to me totally unpadded.
As far as a small helmet worn under a greathelm. There are some references to this. The Best I know if the Luttrel Psalter from the 3nd quarter of the 14th and one carving in a cathedral of the sleeping guards from the 3rd quarter of the 14th. It was a method employed but I doubt it is universal nor do I think the majority did so. There are many pictures of men w/out their great helms on w/out a small helmet in sight. The fact there are some does indicate this was done though but most of the ones I know of are 14th century when the great helm is on its way out in battle.
Richard good insights. Any pictures of you armour? I'd like to see your interpretation of those pieces.
RPM
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David Evans
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: Helmet Liners |
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Last time I got a chance to look in the Wallace Collection they had a small display of padded liners from their collection that aren't normally put on display due to their delicate nature. If I remember correctly they were mostly 15th -17th Century. As far as I know, the normal approach was a linen canvas strip attached to the helmet via the various small rivets. The padded liner was sown to this, allowing removel and replacement when dirty.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote: |
Richard, I believe that the circumferential row of minute holes along the edges of many bascinets was meant for attaching the mail aventails, link by link with a retaining wire, if that is what you are referring to...
Another question... Weren't great helms generally worn over bascinet style or conical style helms, with a padded donut/ring used as an in-between? |
Torsten,
On many bascinets, there are both small holes around the edge and mounted vervelles (staples). The former are for attaching the sewn-in lining, the latter for attaching the aventail. See below for pics from our bascinet spotlight:
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | On many bascinets, there are both small holes around the edge and mounted vervelles (staples). The former are for attaching the sewn-in lining, the latter for attaching the aventail. |
That's what I was talking about! Thanks for the pictures, Chad. It saves me from digging through my books and describing examples.
The holes definitely look more like holes for stitching rather than holes for rivets. It appears that the lining was sewn directly onto the helmet in these bascinets. Osprey sort of shows an example of this in one of the colour plates in English Medieval Knight 1300-1400. They don't show stitches, but they show a padded liner within the bascinet. It does show how the leather strip that held the aventail on the vervelles would cover and protect where the stitches would be. I know this isn't a "preiod" source, but it can give some insights into how things worked when used in conjunction with other sources.
Other bascinets do seem to have had a rivetted-in liner (probably the "standard" rivetted lining strap onto which the lining was sewn). The brass of Sir John d'Aubernoun the Younger of circa 1340 shows a line of rivets right across the edge of the fluted bascinet. These probably held a lining strap, since they go right across his brow.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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