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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:
The fingered liner system of some reproductions is too close to the system used by ww2 german and italian helmets to be credible, such liners were adopted bu Warsaw pact helmets in the postwar period, and I have seen czech medieval helmets equipped with such czech decommissioned cold war helmet liners.

Maybe such kind of precisely cut fingers liners did exist, but I would opt for it being a shortcut solution taken by illustrators of works such as the ones in the Osprey collection or the likes of it.


Bruno,

As I have already pointed out, medieval effigies sometimes show the suspension system inside the helm. This system consists of a material (leather or canvas) cut into triangular gussets and laced at the crown. This system, which is similar to that used in construction hard hats, was indeed used in the medieval period.

Again, as I have already mentioned, there is a surviving canvas suspension lining from a sixteenth century close helmet. This was also cut into gussets at the crown and adjusted by laces that passed through eyelets.

Osprey may sometimes show questionable details, but what they show on the inside of the Norman nasal helmet in the colour plates in Norman Knight 950-1204 AD is almost identical to that definitely shown in later great helms. It is logical to assume that this system was around for a while. The presence of rivet holes along the rim of surviving Norman nasal helmets suggests that this sort of system was used with these helmets. It is definitely not a modern creation!

The number of gussets may have varied; Osprey shows six in their colour plate, while the lining from the sixteenth century close helm has only four. The effigy of Ulrich de Werd, Landgraf of Lower Alsace, circa 1345, seems to show nine gussets (if Nicolle's drawing is accurate - but I don't believe he added a lining that wasn't there).

Here's David Nicolle's statement about the lining of de Werd's helm (from Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350: Western Europe and the Crusader States:
David Nicolle wrote:

Beneath his head lies a great helm, which shows the internal support consisting of split leather laced at the crown.


And here's what Claude Blair says about these sorts of suspension linings in European Armour Circa 1066 to Circa 1700:
Claude Blair wrote:

The rivets securing the upper and lower parts of the helm together also held a lining in the crown. We know from illustrations of this feature dating from c. 1330 onwards, and from the fragments surviving in the Black Prince's helm at Canterbury Cathedral, that it consisted of a deep leather band cut into a series of triangular gusstes pulled together at the top with a cord.


I already posted Oakeshott's description of this sort of suspension system in an earlier post. He basically echoes Blair.

Christopher Gravett suggests a similar system for earlier helmets, although made of canvas, in what he says about helm linings in English Medieval Knight 1200-1300:
Christopher Gravett wrote:

All helmets were fitted with a padded lining, though representations at this date (13th century) are virtually non-existent. Surviving 14th-century linings and representations in art suggest linings were typically of canvas padded with horsehair, tow, wool, grass, or something similar, either glued inside the helmet, or else secured by stitching to a line of small holes along the helmet rim, or else to a leather or canvas band rivetted inside the brim, the band held by crude square or rectangular washers. The upper part was probably scalloped and a draw string threaded through the top ends of each scallop to adjust for fit.


This particular Osprey book has a depiction of a late 13th-century great helm from the inside, showing just such a suspension lining. It looks almost identical to that seen on the slightly later effigy of Ulrich de Werd. Mere speculation? Perhaps, but it's speculation based on an extrapolation of known examples, derived from actual sources.

Gravett says basically the same thing about helm linings in English Medieval Knight 1300-1400, but he gives no disclaimers regarding the lack of period since there are depictions of that particular system for that time period. It does seem to be a logical assumption to suggest that the system that was in use at least by 1330 was in use earlier. It certainly appeared earlier than the modern age.

I hope this helped clarify things!

Stay safe!

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad, thank you for that info, and the great photos! So, about what time did the liner attachment method switch over to the rivetted brow strap, in general use?

p.s.; Richard, I chuckled at this...
Quote:
Do you think I should start a thread showing my projects?
... is that an ever-so-slightly pointed tid-bit of humor, lol? Posting about your own stuff is terribly fun, though... Happy
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 10:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was talking about a certain kind of liner, like the one depicted in the previous page.

It is regular and fingers are rounded, a complex shape.

See this for comparison

http://www.german-helmets.com/COMBAT%20Liner%20Systems.htm
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno,

I agree with Richard in this particular case. Because something old resembles something modern, or rather something modern might seem to be a holdover of something used in antiquity, isn't an indication of inaccuracy in itself. These same people created the complex shapes of castles and cathedrals still standing centuries later and still considered master works of architecture. I don't think a helmet liner was beyond their capability.


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sun 21 Jan, 2007 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:
I was talking about a certain kind of liner, like the one depicted in the previous page.

It is regular and fingers are rounded, a complex shape.


Bruno,

I think medieval craftsmen were certainly capable of cutting rounded fingers like that. They were able to make leather shoes without a problem. They crafted pieces of armour out of leather; not always an easy task! Medieval tailors were able to craft complex dags in the clothing of the rich. I have done some sewing (gambesons and the like), and I can tell you that I wouldn't want to make dags in the complex shapes you sometimes see depicted in medieval art.

The "apex" of each triangular gusset in the lining of Ulrich de Werd's helm appear to be squared off, but that doesn't mean it was always done that way. The fabric helmet lining from the sixteenth century close helm shown in Arms and Amrour of the Medieval Knight has gussets that are somewhat rounded at the top, similar to the "fingers" you've described and linked to. The gussets are broader because there are only four, but the lining would function similar to one with more gussets.

It's my belief that humans will often find similar solutions to similar problems. If the creators of the military helmets of World War I weren't influenced by how their medieval ancestors solved the problem of helmet suspension, they undoubtedly arrived at a similar conclusion. There are alternate ways of doing things, but really only a finite number of alternatives.

Maybe I'm waxing too philosophical right now, but I believe that medieval craftsmen had the capability of creating complex "fingered" helmet liners. They were capable of so many other feats that we moderns would find hard with modern technology.

Stay safe!

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay




Location: Upstate New York
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Reading list: 256 books

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Posts: 782

PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote:
So, about what time did the liner attachment method switch over to the rivetted brow strap, in general use?
p.s.; Richard, I chuckled at this...
Quote:
Do you think I should start a thread showing my projects?
... is that an ever-so-slightly pointed tid-bit of humor, lol? Posting about your own stuff is terribly fun, though... Happy


Torsten,

I hope you don't mind if I take a shot at answering your first question. I believe that both systems were used during the same period. Certainly the lining strap with sewn-on lining was seen in 14th century great helms. The lining sewn directly onto the helmet seems to have been used more for bascinets, and some close helmets and armets. I've looked through some of my books and made the following observations.

From Arms and Armour by Vesey Norman:
-the Pembridge Helm, circa 1375, has a row of rivets across the brow, just above the sights. These rivets must have held a linging strap or were rivetted directly to the lining. (The bascinets that Chad showed would be roughly contemporary with the helm.)

-a unique form of armet from circa 1430, with a "crenellated" bottom edge to the sights, has a row of small holes across the brow just above the sight. The row curves downward at the sides. The holes are set fairly close together. They were probably holes for a stitched-in lining.

From Mediaeval Arms and Armour by Francesco Rossi:
-a barbuta (bascinet) from circa 1375 has a row of small holes that goes across the brow and down the sides, just below the vervelles for the attachment of the aventail. Again, the holes are small and close-set, indicating a lining sewn directly onto the helmet. This again is contemporary with the Pembridge helm.

-a "coppo di bacinetto" of circa 1390-1400 again has a row of small holes running across the brow and about and inch or so in from the edge along the sides. There are large holes above this where the vervelles were once attached. Again, the holes probably indicate that the lining was sewn onto the helmet.

-an "elmetto" of circa 1420-1430, of "great bascinet" form (?) has a row of small holes around the bottom edge, just below the vervelles. Again, the size and spacing of the holes suggests that the lining was sewn onto the helmet.

-a salet of circa 1440-1450 has rivets around the sides of the head, indicating that a lining strap was rivetted insed, or the lining itself was rivetted to the helmet, in similar fashion to the earlier great helms.

-five different celatas (barbutes) of circa 1460 show a row of rivets around the sides of the head, indicating a rivetted-in lining. One, in "Corinthian" style, is of great interest because several of the rivets are mising. This shows the larger size and wider spacing you typically get when the holes indicate missing rivets, versus stitching-holes.

From Claude Blair's European Armour Circa 1066 to Circa 1700:
-a "Norman" helm from Moravia, 10th-13th centuries, has fairly widely-spaced holes indicating where rivets may have held in a lining or lining strap.

-a bascinet of an early form (one that doesn't come very far down the sides of the head - sort of like a developed cervelliere) of circa 1330 has a row of small, closely-spaced holes along the edge. There are vervelles above, but these are modern replacements. The closely-spaced holes may indicate that a lining was once sewn onto the helmet.

From Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight by David Edge and John Miles Paddock:
-the detail from the illuminated address of the town of Prato to Robert of Anjou showing a warrior with sword and shield depicts the warrior in a coat-of-plates and wearing a kettle hat. The artist depicted a row of rivets around the bottom of the dome of the helmet. These could have functioned to attach the brim, but also probably held in a rivetted lining strap.

-a great bascinet from Bourg en Besse of circa 1450. There are fiarly closely-spaced rivets along the edge of the gorget plates. This indicates that the closely-spaced holes may have sometimes held rivets and not stitches (just to throw a wrench in the works). There is also a row of rivets along the side of the head, probably indicating a rivetted-in lining or lining strap.

-two different sallets of circa 1460 exhibit rivets along the sides of the head, indicating a rivetted lining or lining strap.

From English Medieval Knight 1300-1400 by Christopher Gravett:
-the great helm of the Black Prince shows a row of rivets above the sights and across the sides. This obviously held a rivetted in lining, since fragments of this remain.

-two early frog-mouthed helms of a late 14th or early 15th century date show pairs of holes along the fronts and sides. These were obviously holes for laces. This either held in a padded liner by laces, or were part of the attachment of a crest.

-a bascinet of the 14th century found at Pevensey has a row of rivets around the sides and over the brow. These rivets probably held a lining or lining strap.

From English Medieval Knight 1400-1500 by Christopher Gravett:
-the Coventry sallet of circa 1460 shows a row of rivets along the side, indicating a rivetted lining or lining strap.

Just from this quick survey, it appears that linings that were possibly sewn directly into the helmet occurred most often (if not exclusively) on bascinets, and possibly on some great bascinets and close-helmets or armets. Linings attached by a rivetted lining strap (or similar method using rivets) seem to have been used in great helms, sallets, close-helmets and armets, and possibly "Norman" helmets. The rivetted system definitely appears by the 14th century, and was probably in use earlier. It lasted throughout the medieval period. The sewn-in liners seem to be less common, and may be more restricted in time. However, both systems would have been in use at the same time.

As for your second question, I'm somewhat reluctant to post photos of my projects because they aren't quite up to living history standards. Maybe I'll consider it sometime. I do think my hardened leather gauntlets came out nice, even if I did use wax-hardened leather.

I hope this helped!

Stay safe!

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar


Last edited by Richard Fay on Sun 21 Jan, 2007 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Richard Fay wrote:
Bruno Giordan wrote:
I was talking about a certain kind of liner, like the one depicted in the previous page.

It is regular and fingers are rounded, a complex shape.


Bruno,

I think medieval craftsmen were certainly capable of cutting rounded fingers like that. They were able to make leather shoes without a problem. They crafted pieces of armour out of leather; not always an easy task! Medieval tailors were able to craft complex dags in the clothing of the rich. I have done some sewing (gambesons and the like), and I can tell you that I wouldn't want to make dags in the complex shapes you sometimes see depicted in medieval art.

The "apex" of each triangular gusset in the lining of Ulrich de Werd's helm appear to be squared off, but that doesn't mean it was always done that way. The fabric helmet lining from the sixteenth century close helm shown in Arms and Amrour of the Medieval Knight has gussets that are somewhat rounded at the top, similar to the "fingers" you've described and linked to. The gussets are broader because there are only four, but the lining would function similar to one with more gussets.

It's my belief that humans will often find similar solutions to similar problems. If the creators of the military helmets of World War I weren't influenced by how their medieval ancestors solved the problem of helmet suspension, they undoubtedly arrived at a similar conclusion. There are alternate ways of doing things, but really only a finite number of alternatives.

Maybe I'm waxing too philosophical right now, but I believe that medieval craftsmen had the capability of creating complex "fingered" helmet liners. They were capable of so many other feats that we moderns would find hard with modern technology.

Stay safe!


I understand your point, however I have handled several german liners (they are important in order to authenticate german helmets), and the cut of the leather in the example above seems quite to be a copycat of the ww2 german helmet liner, so I assume that it is a modern interpretation.


I'm not excluding at all a fingered liner system, I'm using one myself, I was just referring to some specific modern solutions that appear derived from modern examples.


I'm also positive that I have seen postwar czech Warsaw pact liners being used in medieval helmets (I know them well since they are used to fake german helmets, since such helmets are an highly prized collectible).

So it is not the presence of a fingered liner system that I'm questioning, anybody knowing modern helmets will understand what I'm sayng very well.
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:

I understand your point, however I have handled several german liners (they are important in order to authenticate german helmets), and the cut of the leather in the example above seems quite to be a copycat of the ww2 german helmet liner, so I assume that it is a modern interpretation.


Bruno,

I don't want to speak for Patrick, but I think he showed the lining system in his Norman helmet as an example of the general form of that sort of system. Obviously any modern replica will be a modern interpretation. Perhaps the makers were influenced by German World War II liners when they designed their liner. It makes complete sense to study what works to create a workable design. I doubt that the makers are passing the liner off as 100% historically authentic; we know so little about the exact details. We can arrive at conclusions based on the evidence, but any reconstruction for this period must have a good dose of conjecture thrown into the mix.

Now, were the Czech liners used in replica medieval helmets, or surviving period examples? For someone not very skilled in the construction of a helmet liner, a modern helmet liner may be a valid option to use in a medieval helmet replica. Unless you're so concerned with living history that your liner must be made out of authentic materials like linen canvas and horsehair stuffing, a modern liner can be functional in a medieval helmet. The systems in both helmets work roughly the same.

Would the medieval suspension liner be of the exact cut as the World War II liner? Probably not. Would they be generally close in form and function? I imagine they would, since they solve similar problems, namely, how to make a functional helmet liner.

Stay safe!

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
Joined: 01 Jul 2006

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Richard, that is very interesting information regarding the timelines of liner attachment methods!

I wonder if one method is more durable than another, and if one is cheaper and more expeditious in manufacturing than the other? For both to have been around simultaneously for such an extended period of time, must mean that there were definate advantages to either...

Quote:
I hope you don't mind if I take a shot at answering your first question.

Richard, I firmly believe that no one should mind you putting in your "two cents", since you seem to be very thorough in your research, even if they are caught off-guard by your results Happy. This also goes for the others on this site, who have a substantial amount of knowledge and resources, from whom we can all benefit...
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno wrote:
I understand your point, however I have handled several german liners (they are important in order to authenticate german helmets), and the cut of the leather in the example above seems quite to be a copycat of the ww2 german helmet liner, so I assume that it is a modern interpretation.


Yes I agree, in that the liner in my particular helmet may not represent a minutely accurate representation of a period liner. However, I do think it, and the other liners shown in this thread that share the same basic construction, are correct in their base concept.
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote:
Richard, that is very interesting information regarding the timelines of liner attachment methods!

I wonder if one method is more durable than another, and if one is cheaper and more expeditious in manufacturing than the other? For both to have been around simultaneously for such an extended period of time, must mean that there were definate advantages to either...

Quote:
I hope you don't mind if I take a shot at answering your first question.

Richard, I firmly believe that no one should mind you putting in your "two cents", since you seem to be very thorough in your research, even if they are caught off-guard by your results Happy. This also goes for the others on this site, who have a substantial amount of knowledge and resources, from whom we can all benefit...


Hi Torsten! Happy

Thanks for the compliments! I'm glad others can finally benefit from my obsession with reading about arms and armour.

As for the durability of the different type of attachment methods for helmet liners; I suspect that a liner sewn directly onto the helmet would be more likely to suffer damage. Namely, the stitches could be cut or worn. Rivets would obviously be a stronger method of attachment. However, most of the helmets that show a series of small holes indicating a sewn-in lining are bascinets that had aventails. The leather strip that held the aventail onto the vervelles would have covered most of the stitches. The stitches over the brow might be exposed, but this would often be covered by the top edge of the visor. Still, the stitches on the brow especially might have had a tendency to wear fairly quickly. It probably wasn't a big deal to just have the stitches replaced. Even the liners attached to a rivetted lining strap were sewn onto the strap, in part so the linings could be replaced if worn.

I don't know if there would be a significant difference in cost or time to manufacture. Rivetting on a lining strap obviously requires an extra step, but I think it could be done fairly easily. I've rivetted on a lining strap in both my bascinet and my MRL War Hat, and it took me only an hour or two in each case, and that's working slowly and carefully. The creation of the linings themselves took much longer, but that part would have been done by fabric armourers or leather workers.

Perhaps the only real difference was personal preference. Of course, a liner stitched directly onto a great helm might be too open to damage to be very effective. Great helms do seem to have had the rivetted liner as standard.

All of this is just speculation, but I think it makes some sense.

Stay safe!

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jan, 2007 2:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Richard Fay wrote:
Bruno Giordan wrote:

I understand your point, however I have handled several german liners (they are important in order to authenticate german helmets), and the cut of the leather in the example above seems quite to be a copycat of the ww2 german helmet liner, so I assume that it is a modern interpretation.


Bruno,

I don\'t want to speak for Patrick, but I think he showed the lining system in his Norman helmet as an example of the general form of that sort of system. Obviously any modern replica will be a modern interpretation. Perhaps the makers were influenced by German World War II liners when they designed their liner. It makes complete sense to study what works to create a workable design. I doubt that the makers are passing the liner off as 100% historically authentic; we know so little about the exact details. We can arrive at conclusions based on the evidence, but any reconstruction for this period must have a good dose of conjecture thrown into the mix.

Now, were the Czech liners used in replica medieval helmets, or surviving period examples? For someone not very skilled in the construction of a helmet liner, a modern helmet liner may be a valid option to use in a medieval helmet replica. Unless you\'re so concerned with living history that your liner must be made out of authentic materials like linen canvas and horsehair stuffing, a modern liner can be functional in a medieval helmet. The systems in both helmets work roughly the same.

Would the medieval suspension liner be of the exact cut as the World War II liner? Probably not. Would they be generally close in form and function? I imagine they would, since they solve similar problems, namely, how to make a functional helmet liner.

Stay safe!


Yes, being a perfectionist I just do not like to see a norman helmet with the inside furmnished with the reproduction fo a pickelhaube liner, with its regular round shaped fingers.

I know well that in the past they could be almost as refined as in modern times, I remembre having seen Brunelleschi\'s instruments used in the building of Firenze\'s Dome, they are absolutely mdoern in shape and very precisely made.

Watch a renaissance sfera armillare (sort of planetarium) and you will see a very mdorn instrument, the Antykitera mechanism from the classical greek age was a well made mechanical astronomical computer etc.

However a scrounge vendor using modern liners is still a little disappointing to me, while a triangular finger shaped liner or anything non ww2 like is pretty much aceptable for me.
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Guy Thomas




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, there's some great discussion on helms here! Thanks! Patrick, thanks for the picture of the interior of your Norman helm, my sons helm has a liner exactly like yours, glued in place around the interior rim with what must be a powerful glue, I wonder if it is made by the same people. I have no idea who actually made his helm though I suspect it came from India. I should email the company he bought it from for kicks. With a cloth hood and the mail coif I made eons ago it fits him very well but then he's got a big head like me!
Guy Thomas
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