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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Wed 17 Jan, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | One other thing, the authors of Brassey's Book of Body Armour suggested that the plates of the cuirass were lined with leather. Is this likely, or is linen more likely? If you believe that it was lined with linen, why? Would it be a sort of light padding, or just plain cloth? What benefit would a linen lining give? Just wondering! 
I know, not only do I read too much, but I write too much, too!  (And maybe even think too much and ask too many questions as well!)
Thanks again!
Stay safe! |
Just a guess that some form of padding would make the armour more silent when moving around and maybe cut down on vibration between the plates: Vibration and the " clank, clank, clank " might be annoying or the noise might be a give away in a battle situation i.e. waiting in ambush ?
Now in a formal battle out in the open or in a chariot noisy armour would be of little importance. Also I don't think a rich and important warrior in this kind of armour would be primarily involved in an ambush scenario but might be at the site as the leader in charge of much more lightly armed warriors or skirmishers who would implement the ambush.
The " Denfra panoply type " armed warrior might get involved personally in the fight after the initial attack or not ?
A lot depends on ambushes being used as honourable tactics by the specific culture using this armour.
In any case this is all very much speculation but I did want to give a specific example were noisy armour might be a factor.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 17 Jan, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Now in a formal battle out in the open or in a chariot noisy armour would be of little importance. Also I don't think a rich and important warrior in this kind of armour would be primarily involved in an ambush scenario but might be at the site as the leader in charge of much more lightly armed warriors or skirmishers who would implement the ambush. |
Hi Jean!
Not to divert this thread too much (I think Dan's Dendra panoply certainly deserves our undivided attention), but I personally wouldn't use a plated cuirass for an ambush tactic. I think padded or even hardened leather armour might be more appropriate in that instance. Ambush implies a surprise strike, probably from behind, so I don't think an ambusher needs to wear heavy armour. Speed and mobility are probably more important than protection in that situation.
I seem to recall reading that the English had trouble with Welsh ambushes because the Welsh were relatively lightly armed and so were fairly mobile. They could swoop down out of the hills and swiftly attack the mailed English warriors. I believe someone had suggested at the time that the English should adopt lighter armour when confronting the wild Welsh, but I don't remember the specifics right now. I could look it up, but it's a bit off the topic of this thread.
Now, the Dendra panoply might protect the wearer, possibly the chariot driver, from ambushes launched against him. Having to steer the chariot, he might otherwise be vulnerable. It may have been a reasonable tactic to try and take out the chariot driver to take away the mobility of the riders. It's just speculation, and maybe I'm thinking too much again, but it seems possible to me.
Stay safe (and watch out for ambushes)!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 17 Jan, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | Hello all!
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Now in a formal battle out in the open or in a chariot noisy armour would be of little importance. Also I don't think a rich and important warrior in this kind of armour would be primarily involved in an ambush scenario but might be at the site as the leader in charge of much more lightly armed warriors or skirmishers who would implement the ambush. |
Hi Jean!
Not to divert this thread too much (I think Dan's Dendra panoply certainly deserves our undivided attention), but I personally wouldn't use a plated cuirass for an ambush tactic. I think padded or even hardened leather armour might be more appropriate in that instance. Ambush implies a surprise strike, probably from behind, so I don't think an ambusher needs to wear heavy armour. Speed and mobility are probably more important than protection in that situation.
! |
I also don't want to stray too much from Dan's Dendra panoply but I think I was just reaching and maybe a little too much for reasons why a lining might be useful, so it should be seen as mostly related to what we know or don't know about the use of the panoply.
Oh, and I agree that this kind of armour wouldn't be anywhere near the first choice about proper armour to be worn by anyone participating actively in an ambush, but officers or important nobles might in any period wear the wrong thing as far as practicality is concerned because it was a status symbol or expected of their status somehow.
Anyway back to the armour: Would keeping noise down between plate or even metal on metal damage to the finish be a reason for a lining, forgetting for now my " ambush " idea.
Oh, bouncing around on a charrior with little or no suspension the clanking of plate on plate might soon get on one's nerves ?  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Since I assume you did some very careful research on it before having it made, the reason there is no means of fastening the gorget is that there was no evidence of any form of attachments or even holes that would permit attachment.
I'm just wondering if some form of attachment could have existed that would leave no trace on the gorget ? A lining with attachments glued on or physically attached in a way that didn't need any holes.
Maybe a bulky leather or padded fabric collar on some sort of arming coat that the gorget would fit tightly on so as to not move around. |
The gorget is basically a tube that has been shaped on the bottom to fit neatly over the shoulders. It needs to placed on the shoulders AFTER the helmet is fastened under the chin. There is absolutely no discernable way that i can see to attach the gorget to the cuirass.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | | I've got a couple of ideas about that ring on the pauldron. I'm wondering if it might have something to do with some sort of attachment for the gorget, to hold it in place. Maybe some sort of cords or thonging were somehow attached to the gorget and tied onto the ring. Is it possible that some sort of attachment of this sort would have been lost over the centuries? Is the ring in a position where this might be the case? Also, is there definitely no trace of a ring on the opposite side? |
I thought about this but the placement of the ring is such that it can't hold the gorget in place (assuming that any trace of a second device on the gorget has disappeared)
| Quote: | | My other idea about the ring is that they might not have anything to do with the function of the pauldron, but may have had some decorative purpose. Is it possible that some sort of horsehair streamer or other form of decorative element may have been attached to the ring? It might give a cool effect when driving the chariot, with a cloth or horsehair streamer flapping in the breeze behind you. I know it's just speculation, but it's an idea (and maybe a wild, far-out one at that). |
Certainly is possible.
| Quote: | | As for the greaves, might they be more of a sort of status symbol? How protected were the legs of chariot drivers? Did the chariots of the time have solid sides or sides made of an open framework? If the greaves were unnecessary, perhaps they were included as a sign of wealth. I do believe that I read elsewhere that the Dendra panoply was possibly used by a chariot driver; it seems to make sense to me. The chariot is going to do the warrior who rides in it little good if the driver is taken out! |
The originals were "paper thin" according to Astrom. They would not have offered much protection unless they were layered over something else - IMO layered linen. I think that the Mykenaian chariot was open at the sides and it definitely was open at the back.
| Quote: | | One other thing, the authors of Brassey's Book of Body Armour suggested that the plates of the cuirass were lined with leather. Is this likely, or is linen more likely? If you believe that it was lined with linen, why? Would it be a sort of light padding, or just plain cloth? What benefit would a linen lining give? Just wondering! |
There is no way that anyone who read the original report could conclude that there was a leather liner. Only the edges were leather. Apparently there was some traces of textile that may have formed part of a liner. I have no idea what benefit a liner will have. I don't even know how to go about attaching one since only the edges have holes. The centre of the plates will have loose cloth flapping around unless I glue it in place and there is no glue that the Greeks could have used that would not be susceptible to sweat/moisture. The texts imply that glue was NOT used - even in the construction of the linothorax. The liner probably has nothing to do with noise since the leather edging acts to stop the plates rattling. If the liner was made up of multiple layers of linen then it would serve as useful padding.
Last edited by Dan Howard on Thu 18 Jan, 2007 5:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
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There was also skeletal remains found in the same grave as the Dendra Panoply. Both the armour and skeleton were examined and it was determined that the warrior who wore the Dendra armour was around 1.75 m tall and weighed around 60-65 kg. I am 3cm taller than this and weigh 70 kg (sometimes 72kg after a big dinner). The armour pinches my sides if I'm not careful when putting it on. 10 years ago this wouldn't have been a problem since I weighed 12 kg less and was a lot fitter.
The original armour weighs around 18 kg in its current condition. This reconstruction weighs around 24kg (without the helmet). The plate is a little thicker than the original, but mine hasn't undergone a lifetime of polishing and three millenia of corrosion. I think that the original, when new, would not have been much lighter than this reconstruction.
Some scholars have claimed that the armour was too small for an adult. Clearly this is bollocks. Others claim that it was too heavy - even for a fit adult. Also bollocks.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | There is no way that anyone who read the original report could conclude that there was a leather liner. Only the edges were leather. Apparently there was some traces of textile that may have formed part of a liner. I have no idea what benefit a liner will have. I don't even know how to go about attaching one since only the edges have holes. The centre of the plates will have loose cloth flapping around unless I glue it in place and there is no glue that the Greeks could have used that would not be susceptible to sweat/moisture. The texts imply that glue was NOT used - even in the construction of the linothorax. The liner probably has nothing to do with noise since the leather edging acts to stop the plates rattling. If the liner was made up of multiple layers of linen then it would serve as useful padding. |
Hi Dan!
Thanks again for the details about the Dendra find. Perhaps the authors of Brassey's Book of Armour read a bit about the find, saw that it was trimmed in leather, and assumed that it was also lined in leather. I wish these books would get their facts right!
One thought about a linen liner; it might not flap around in the centre as badly as you think. Do the holes go all the way around the circumference of each plate? I imagine so, if the leather trim goes all the way around. I have lined a coat-of-plates (possibly not completely authentic, but it helps protect the plates and any undergarments if I wear it without my heavy butted mail shirt) and a pair of covered plate cuisses with a heavy canvas. The canvas follows the shape of the plates fairly well with just stitching around the edge, no glue necessary. If it's attached without much slack, it shouldn't flap around too badly. I'm sure the "Wal-Mart special" canvas I got wasn't linen (I don't have the means right now to purchase historically accurate materials - my projects must be "on the cheap" as it were), but I would think linen would act pretty much the same way.
Of course, you would probably have to remove all that nice leather trim first. I would think that the leather trim might also play a role in holding the linen in. I would think that the linen would be stitched around the holes, then the trim stitched on over the edge of the linen and the plates. That's how I would do it (and that's how I did the trim on my coat-of-plates). The trim would "fold-over" the edges of the linen.
Oh, according to the scholars who claimed that the panoply was made for a child - I guess I would be a child, then, at a mere 170 cm (and probably shrinking fast)! Strange child I must be, with greying hair and a growing forehead!
One question: was your reproduction made ever so slightly larger to fit your slightly larger build? That would add a bit more weight. That's something that isn't discussed much; a harness made for a large man would be a bit heavier than that made for a smaller man, since more metal must be used. It wouldn't be a tremendous difference, but more material would mean more weight. I have to make my armour rather wide, since I've got a bit of a belly. I need more material than someone slim.
Is it possible that the greaves were more of a symbol than actual armour? Or would a chariot driver (since I definitely agree - it seems to make more sense for an armour such as this to be worn by the driver) have need of greaves? Are they "full" greaves, protecting the whole leg, or are they more along the lines of "demi-greaves"? If they are only "demi-greaves", and the chariots had some sort of front, then maybe the greaves were more symbolic.
I do go on, don't I?
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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The armour wasn't made to fit me. I was under the impression that Andrew took measurements directly from the original. If he did adjust the fit, it was for his body and not mine. He made the armour for himself and had it for several years before selling it to me. The fact that it fits me is pure coincidence. The fact that I'm of a similar height and build to the Dendra warrior is also coincidence - a happy coincidence since any experiments done with this armour should give a good idea of what was possible in the original.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Certain European armour parts of the 15th and 16th c., such as helms, pauldrons, and cuisses had leather strips rivetted around the edges and had linen liners sewn to the leather. Some later breastplates were also lined. The Dendra panoply, being plate armour, would have provoked similar solutions to the later plate.
jamesarlen.com
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Hi James,
Any ideas as to what purpose the liner on these medieval plate pieces serve?
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: |
Any ideas as to what purpose the liner on these medieval plate pieces serve? |
Hi Dan ,
I know I'm not James, but do you mind if I take a stab at answering this question? Maybe James can elaborate on what I say, and either corroborate or refute it. (I am actually also interested in what James says on this point - but I just couldn't resist giving my two cents worth .)
Perhaps the lining of late medieval plate functioned to protect the undergarments such as the arming doublet from possible wear and tear by the edges of the plate. They could also make the armour a bit more comfortable to wear, especially if the linings on certain parts were padded. Certainly helmet liners were padded, and functioned as part of the suspension system of the helmet (there are padded helmet liners shown in the appendix "Helmets and Helmet Linings" in Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight by David Edge and John Miles Paddock). It could also protect the undergarments from being besmirched by rust or grime from the plates. And, possibly it protected the plates from scratching each other where they overlap.
The leather trim on the Dendra panoply reminds me a bit of the velvet pickadils found on edges of the plates of some 16th century armour. In Stephen N. Fliegel's Arms and Armor: The Cleveland Museum of Art, the author states that the helmet interior, breastplate, and tassets were fitted with padded linings or velvet pickadils to make the suit more comfortable and to prevent the plates from scratching during movement.
This is what Claude Blair says about plate linings and pickadils in European Armour Circa 1066 to Circa 1700:
| Claude Blair wrote: |
As before, various parts of the armour had their individual padded linings, while from the middle of the (16th) century , the main edges were often decorated with projecting leather or fabric tabs known as pickadils; these were particularly common after c. 1570. |
And this is what Charles ffoulkes said about armour lining in The Armourer and his Craft:
| Charles ffoulkes wrote: |
All parts of the suit were lined, for inspite of the padded undergarment there was bound to be a certain amount of chaffing which, if the armour was unlined, would in time rub through the undergarment. In many portraits, especially those of the late sixteenth century, the linings are shown projecting below the edges of the various pieces of the suit. The edges are generally scalloped...
The lining of such pieces as the taces and pauldrons was added to prevent the metal over which they worked from being scratched, and also to lessen the metallic noise, which would be a serious factor in night attacks... |
The last bit in the quote from ffoulkes sounds an awful lot like Jeans ambush theory! ffoulkes's mention of scalloped edges is probably referring to pickadils.
Again, I hope you don't mind me leaping in here with some ideas and excerpts from my library. I'm sure James can speak from more practical experience.
I still hope this was of interest!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
Last edited by Richard Fay on Fri 19 Jan, 2007 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again!
Since we're talking about lining plate armour, I thought I would share with everyone photos of my covered cuisses. I made padded cuisses to wear beneath these, and I originally left the back of the plates bare. I was concerned with the edges of the plates rubbing against and wearing my padded cuisses, so I decided to line my covered cuisses with my all-purpose "Wal-Mart special" blue canvas. It's a fairly heavy and durable cloth. I think it's cotton, but I can't be 100% sure.
Anyway, I sewed a roughly square piece of the canvas on the fabric around the edge of the plates. I figure it's better to have the plates potentially wearing through the removable lining than the padded cuisses. (Of course, I shouldn't worry too much anyway, since they are mostly for display, but they are wearable.) The covered cuisses are actually a bit more comfortable with the canvas, even without padding. It should help hide rust, if not prevent it. In historical armour, each individual plate may have been lined separately, but my lining was a bit of an afterthought. The cuisses don't really bend much, so I don't worry about movement damaging the lining. You can also see how the fabric conforms to the curvature of the plates; no glue needed!
Notice on my front view of the cuisses that I attached a poleyn. I rivetted a leather strip around the inside circumference of the poleyns and then sewed the cuisses onto the edges of the strip. This may have been done historically; it's roughly similar to how helmet linings were attached, and 14th century effigies and brasses sometimes show rivets around the edge of the poleyns. The rivets may have gone directly through the cloth of the cuisses, or they may have attached a leather lining strap. Perhaps the strap would be less visible than I made it; I let it stick out a bit from the poleyns because it was easier for me to sew it that way (I suffer from RA, so my fingers give me trouble sometimes).
I know my pieces aren't up to living history standards, but I see them as experiments in form. I find myself trying to solve the same problems that our ancestors must have faced. It's all a learning experience.
Here are the pictures:
 Attachment: 37.19 KB
Inside of covered cuisse.
Attachment: 42.12 KB
Outside of covered cuisse.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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George H.
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Just watched Ancient Discoveries tonight, and they mentioned the Dendra Panoply. Sounded like they were calling it a "panopoly," though...
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: |
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Richard pretty much covered it. Armour grime wouldn't be quite as bad with bronze, but it is still a factor. Unlined cuisses/poleyns are real hose-eaters, and if your mail voiders don't cover the tops of the shoulders, they're in for it too. If you wear the stuff day in, day out, you find that out pretty quick. In the case of the Dendra panoply, linen would make the most sense, as it is coolest in warm weather, so it would have that in common with later plate. It also occurs to me that, when it comes to dealing with plate, one could, of course, as the later Europeans did, make a special garment to be worn with the harness, or one could attach the necessary elements directly to the plate, wearing whatever one wished underneath it, or a hybrid of the two ideas. The makers of the Dendra panoply might have used the second alternative.
jamesarlen.com
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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There are no illustrations during the time in question indicating whether an arming garment was worn under armour but those dating to later time periods indicate that a regular tunic was worn. No specialised garments.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | There are no illustrations during the time in question indicating whether an arming garment was worn under armour but those dating to later time periods indicate that a regular tunic was worn. No specialised garments. |
Hi Dan!
Could this suggest that, if the Dendra panoply was lined, that the lining was at least lightly padded? How comfortable is it to wear with a plain tunic? Would a padded lining improve the feel or protective qualities of it in any way?
James's comments regarding padding attached to the separate elements of later armour got me wondering about the possibility of this in the Dendra panoply. Would it work?
Interesting stuff to ponder, this is...
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. I'm thinking that the armour might have been lined with a few layers of linen to act as a substitute for a specialised arming garment.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Yes. I'm thinking that the armour might have been lined with a few layers of linen to act as a substitute for a specialised arming garment. |
Hi Dan!
So, you feel it would definitely improve the "comfort factor" of the armour? How does it feel currently? Do you notice any chafing, rubbing, or any of the other standard "annoyance" factors of plate armour? Maybe a lining, if it was thick enough, did help keep the gorget from moving around too much.
Just wondering.
Thanks for the discussion.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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It is only uncomfortable on the shoulders. Most of the weight is carried here. If the gorget was lined thickly enough to stop it from moving around it would cut off the air to my mouth and make it very difficult to turn my head. It would also reduce the inside diameter to the point that it would not fit over the helmet - remember that the helmet must be fastened under the chin before the gorget is slipped on over the head.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Thu 25 Jan, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | If the gorget was lined thickly enough to stop it from moving around it would cut off the air to my mouth and make it very difficult to turn my head. |
Hi Dan!
That would be a problem, wouldn't it? That gorget seems to be the worst part of the whole design, wouldn't you agree? It seems as if it should have some way to secure it.
How much movement would a chariot driver be expected to make, assuming we're right and it was worn by the driver? Would the gorget be that great of an annoyance, or could he have functioned even with the gorget bouncing around? (I imagine the movement of the chariot would have sent the gorget dancing away!) Is there any way the helmet played a role in helping secure the gorget?
I'm sorry if I seem hung up on the gorget, but it seems a clumsy piece to an otherwise fairly well-made armour.
I think if there was a bit of a padded or layered lining, it might actually help the armour cling to the rest of the body and take a bit of the weight off the shoulders, if that makes any sense. Again, it would be akin to the late medieval linings helping make for a more comfortable fit.
I hope this made some sense, it's getting late here in the frigid Great Northeast.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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