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D Vranas





Joined: 25 Oct 2009

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PostPosted: Mon 26 Oct, 2009 2:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Eging wrote:

Very interesting. What is interesting to me is that the Byzantines had such a wide medieval footprint, and armouries producing weapons for thematic armies, etc. that we don't see many examples of their weaponry. For example, coins, jewelry, etc. there are many many pieces, but I am wracking my brain to find examples of these Byzantine weapons.

Cool


You are right Michael. Pieces of Byzantine weapons are really rear. I ll try to post some here ,unfortunately swords not included (sorry for being a bit off topic)

Arrowheads, dagger and Axe . Kitros,Macedonia,Greece 6th-7th cent.AD.


Arrowheads .Thessaloniki,Greece.


(probably) Byzantine Mace .14th cent.
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D Vranas





Joined: 25 Oct 2009

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PostPosted: Mon 26 Oct, 2009 2:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote


Hand Grenades of Greek Fire and "trivolia".10th + 12th cent , Chania,Crete,Greece.
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Oct, 2009 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen, that was extremely interesting. Thanks for posting the link. I noted a lot of commonality in the cross-guards with what I have been finding in the iconography.

D, thank you for posting the examples of other weaponry. That mace is very interesting. Certainly made for crushing!

And the hand grenades are something that we don't often think about. Do we know what was used to fill those?

Thanks again! This has become a very interesting thread for me.

Cool

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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Oct, 2009 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Extraordinary.
Thank you very much for the up-grade photos. Photos on Byzantine weapons are so rare.
A spathion would be the best.
Although not rare, for completeness I include, two photo, here there aren't.
Ciao
Maurizio



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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Oct, 2009 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Byzantine Edged Weaponry         Reply with quote

Alan H. Weller wrote:
Take a look at this, particularly pages 68, 70 and 72

http://www.porphyra.it/Supplemento4.pdf


on page 23 refers to the figure 8 on page 72. it is written that is a sword very similar to a sword preserved in the museum in Essen. That sword is not a typical Byzantine sword, I think that style is typically European. Perhaps only the scabbard has Byzantine influences. The Sword of Essen here some research.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Oct, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Eging wrote:
I am posting these pictures in this thread in the hopes that someone might be able to give me a bit more information about each of them. Would either of these weapons have been similar to those in the kit of Eastern armies?


The second picture:
This single-edged blade and double-edged point sword is part of a set of arms and armour which once belonged to a noble warrior. The sword was probably made in a workshop which specialized in objects for the nomadic nobility: this is suggested by Greek letters scratched on the back of the handle. The close relations between Byzantium and the Eurasian nomads in the 7th-century allow us to regard this object as a piece of a gift or contribution. Crosses on the sword's facing indicate that it may have belonged to Khan Kubrat and thus the Pereshchepina Treasure was probably from the burial of this major historical figure. The sword may have been one of the gold objects which formed part of a presumed diplomat gift (634-640) from Heraclius to the chieftain of the Hunogunduri, the Christian Khan Kubrat.
Inscribed "Houvr(a)tou patr(i)k(iou)", indicating the patrician status he enjoyed at the court of Heraclius.
But it is not Byzantine sword, style is nomadic, in honor of Khan Kubrat.
Ciao
Maurizio
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Oct, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very interesting history of the sword. I didn't think it was from such an early period. If this was created by a craftsman in the imperial employ, was this similar to weapons being incorporated into thematic armies at the time? Or just built to honor an Asiatic ruler?
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Oct, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Eging wrote:
Very interesting history of the sword. I didn't think it was from such an early period. If this was created by a craftsman in the imperial employ, was this similar to weapons being incorporated into thematic armies at the time? Or just built to honor an Asiatic ruler?


Hi Michael,
just my personal opinion, I think a sword only built in honor of Kubrat, respecting his style.


The sword is a typical Byzantine depicted in the photo posted by Nick Trueman. Second post of your thread.
Some typical characteristics for a spathion the 11-12th century are:
pomell onion, small ropes tied on the pomell, guard with ball ends, scabbard with floral decorations.
Some of these features are mentioned by Hoffmeier.
Very interesting thread
Ciao
Maurizio
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D Vranas





Joined: 25 Oct 2009

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Oct, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Eging wrote:
Allen, that was extremely interesting. Thanks for posting the link. I noted a lot of commonality in the cross-guards with what I have been finding in the iconography.

D, thank you for posting the examples of other weaponry. That mace is very interesting. Certainly made for crushing!

And the hand grenades are something that we don't often think about. Do we know what was used to fill those?

Thanks again! This has become a very interesting thread for me.

Cool



And here is a 15th cent icon of St.Demetrius with a spear,a sword,a bow with arrows ,a kite shield,a helmet and a Byzantine Mace. ,identical to the one found above.
The characteristic of byzantine maces were that they were long and their head is a long winged club .
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Oct, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anyone have the specs on the mace? Would be interesting to know.

Thanks!

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Viktor Chudinov




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Oct, 2009 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A very interesting icon, where is it from?
It's one of the very few that shows some kind of protection for the arms or the legs - in this case maille chausses

Thank you in advance.

I wonder...do deaf schizophrenics hear voices...
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Oct, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Viktor Chudinov wrote:
The second one is a sword from Malaya Pereshtchepina (sp?) and is date - late 7th, or the beginning of 8th C.
In the treasure were found two rings bearing monograms,which were read "Kkubratu" and "kubratu patriciu". This led historians to believe it might be connencted to the ruler of Great Bulgaria Kubrat.

As for byzantine swords - Wallpaintings and manuscripts from 12th-15th centuries show swords which appear to be identical to western ones. The other weapon that can be seen is a single-edged curved sword


Here is a quote from the Hermitage on the sword that was made for the Khan of Kubrat.

Poltava Region, Ukraine

7th century

Gold, iron, glass

L in sheath 94.2 cm

Pereshchepina Treasure

This single-edged blade and double-edged point sword is part of a set of arms and armour which once belonged to a noble warrior. The sword was probably made in a workshop which specialized in objects for the nomadic nobility: this is suggested by Greek letters scratched on the back of the handle. The close relations between Byzantium and the Eurasian nomads in the 7th-century allow us to regard this object as a piece of a gift or contribution. Crosses on the sword's facing indicate that it may have belonged to Khan Kubrat and thus the Pereshchepina Treasure was probably from the burial of this major historical figure. The sword may have been one of the gold objects which formed part of a presumed diplomat gift (634-640) from Heraclius to the chieftain of the Hunogunduri, the Christian Khan Kubrat.

I would really like to see the whole blade. Does anyone have pictures of the entire length?

M. Eging
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Viktor Chudinov




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Oct, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These are the only ones I could find. I hope you can see the images, since they're on local sites:



I wonder...do deaf schizophrenics hear voices...
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Oct, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What a slender shaped blade. It is amazing. Thanks for posting!

Cool

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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Oct, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found this, has a different view. I think would be a bit heavy ... but I say it without evidence, only viewing.
Ciao
Maurizio



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Nat Lamb




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Oct, 2009 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anyone mentioned paramirions yet? I have always thought they seemed kinda interesting.
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Oct, 2009 8:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
I found this, has a different view. I think would be a bit heavy ... but I say it without evidence, only viewing.
Ciao
Maurizio


Those pictures do give it a very different perspective. But as discussed earlier, it was probably an ornamental gift, but I am curious if there are other, more combat oriented weapons upon which it was based.

Cool

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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Oct, 2009 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
I found this, has a different view. I think would be a bit heavy ... but I say it without evidence, only viewing.
Ciao
Maurizio


Probably it's fairly thin plate (gold or gold-plated silver) over wood, so the weight would not be really noticable.

Nice and interesting sword! Thanks for the photo's.
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Oct, 2009 5:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nat Lamb wrote:
Anyone mentioned paramirions yet? I have always thought they seemed kinda interesting.


Okay, here is a picture of the Emerpor Nikephoros Phokas holding a paramerion. Note the cross guard is very western in style.

Also, I included a picture found on levantia.com.au of a paramerion recreation. I really do like this style of sword and some day would like to have a recreation made...

Cool



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M. Eging
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Samuel Bena




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Eging wrote:
Okay, here is a picture of the Emerpor Nikephoros Phokas holding a paramerion


Hi Michael ,

gotta ask , any idea what is the place of origin/date of the Emperors portrait ? Happy

Thanks
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