[Jared Smith]

I am curious about traditional sword stock removal technique, and how this may be done for non mass production today as well as how it might have been done prior to 14th-15th century belt driven machinery methods. I am familiar with the foot tredal, but suspect there was another simpler jig known as a grinding bench.

I read the previous post on sword polishing and greatly appreciated the time and knowledge that Peter Johnson took the time to share. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=3879

Much of this seems to be based upon water wheel power and fairly modern technology compared to 13th century and earlier technologies that would have likely been available to the broad spectrum of blacksmiths and bladesmiths.

Patrick Barta does have a grinding wheel, but also shows a bench style jig in some of his project photos. This type of jig makes a lot of sense to me, and in some ways might make consistent shaping superior over belt and wheel grinding even if it would take an order of magnitude longer!

[Merv Cannon]

Hi Jared........this is very interresting to me right now because I have started doing my first blade this way. I cant really see whats going on in that photo with the jig, but it looks like hes cutting a fuller with a mounted file or scraper. I have thought of mounting a thin curved grinding wheel much like a bench-saw, but hey, i dont even know where to get a thin rounded grinding wheel ! I have a feeling that some of the old techniques are burried in those really expensive Sword-metalurgy type books....I dont know if anyone here has any of them ( the titles elude me at present ) . Do you have any more photos showing how the jigs are used ? I know that it will be quite a long time, if ever, that I do any forging so stock removal is very appealing. This knowlege is important, I feel, to those interrested because some techniques appear quite daunting to the novice, and then a pro shows how much simpler it can be with the right tools and technique....( and a few jigs, I suspect !)
Cheers !

[Jared Smith]

That is the only decent photo I have come across. A few other articles out there do mention a "grinding bench." Barta is credited with using traditional methods in the manufacture of his swords. The sword being produced here is a viking era replica. I suspect this is a "traditional" technique pre-modern to belt driven apparatus.

I believe a hardened metal blade (like a wood plane iron for cutting convex wood molding in principle) is used on the underside of Barta's sliding jig to cut the steel while it is in the softened annealed phase. This can work surpisingly fast if the cutting iron is well made and hardened high carbon and the sword blank is properly annealed (spherodized I think is the proper term if the material is actually a heat treatable spring grade of steel.)

Several pattern welders mention using this type of a jig today. The tang and tip may be clamped while working on most of the blade. Nails may also be used to trap the edge of the blank and keep it centered while working it. The beam the blade rests on is something like a simple 4"X4" timper that may be discarded afterwards (probably full of nail holes, rouge, and grit.)

My impressioin is that notches to represent depth of distal taper are cut into the flat blank first. Much later, with a flat file, one can produce distal taper. A file can be worked on both sides until the notches disappear.

Fullers are the first to be filed or cut. These will later taper out automatically and disappear when grinding the distal taper and beveling the edges. I figured I would just buy a flat and half round mil file (several sizes which would cut an appropriate range fuller widths are available) and weld some threaded bolts to the back side of the files. Some rounded wet stones (sold for sharpening carving gouges) can also be bought to smooth the surface once it is close to final shape. Polishing rouges are also utilized.

Some modern short cuts are to grind approximate edge bevels (not too deep) with an angle grinder.

The whole operation can be done with a simple saw horse, clamped on 4"X4" beam, simple home made jigs, and elbow grease + hours.

Alternatively you can; buy a CNC machine, move to a location near a river and build yourself a water propelled apparatus, spend years learning how to use one of those $600 (minimum) belt grinding machines without making a hollow ground edge..... etc.

I don't know how historical this actually is, but suspect it is very much traditional if Barta is using it.......

[Bruno Giordan]

Big round grinding wheel, made of stone, water powered and water cooled are shown in renaissance paintings.

Polishers would often operate by layng down on a table before the wheel, this was the method used until a century ago or less to make sabers in the brescian area.

Very dangerous, the polishers reportedly would often lose fingers with such wheels.

I have seen two at my medieval forge, they were not restored purposedly since they would be too dangerous for modern safety standards.

[Jared Smith]

I was previously thinking of the water powered stone as more modern.

During the day I found some Justor articles stating that the basic powered milling stone technology was well established in the 10th century. There are actually some maps showing hundreds of location in England alone, and known quarries for greenstone. Per one article (need subscription to link it) there was a decline in the industry around the time of the plague. At least one church floor was made with abandoned grinding stones due to the devastation of industry during plague. Powered mills and industry re-emerged 15th century.

In the mill industry, a lot of these stones were oriented horizontally (for grinding wheat) and a flat grind blade profile could have been done easily if such a device were available with a smooth face.

Perhaps the bench is primarily for rough shaping fullers. Any other knowledge of the "grinding bench" or jig would be appreciated.

[Chris M.]

i make knives as a hobby and a little extra cash so i might be able to help a little.

i cant say anymore about whats been said about 14th c grinding but i can tell you about cheap ways to get by.

the problem with a sword is your going to need a kitchen oven big enough to temper it.

a 10in bench grinding wheel on an old motor works well with a work rest of wood. cut a notch so the rest goes in on the side of the wheel about a half inch. jigs aren't usually used since its easier to grind freehand with the curvature of the blade. a block can be screwed to the rest as a stop to keep the angle consistent though.

i forge to shape and then clean up by using a belt grinder that i made of spare parts.

if you don't want to worry about temper then you can get a cross cut file and draw file a car trailer leaf spring while its clamped to a bench. this should take a couple days of spare time. cut the tang out by using a cut off wheel or torch. if the torch method is used then wrap the blade in a wet cloth so it doesn't heat and loose temper. 1\8- 3/16 is about as thick as your steel should be. everybody wants to try 1/4 at first and they wind up with a semi sharp club or just get tired of grinding.

http://gbrannon.bizhat.com/ this site has alot of info on almost every aspect of knife sword making

my best advice is to go to www.northcoastknives.com and check out the tutorial section on grinding. the best blade booki'vee found for begginers is wayne goddards 50$ knife shop, well worth the ten or so dollars. teaches stock removal, forge, temper, and how to make your own equipment. available at the site above. (no idon'tt work or advertise for them haha)

hope this helps and good luck