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Thomas Hoogendam




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr, 2005 12:35 pm    Post subject: Sword polishing in Europe: how was it done??         Reply with quote

I just realized something, and perhaps this sounds very stupid, but I just honoustly don't now.

In Japan, swordpolishing is done with several stones, each one bringing the sword's polish to a new level, untill it is done.

However, I've never known how swords were polished in Europe, or any other part of the world for that matter, during the centuries. Their are lot's of articles, both in print and online, on how blades were forged, on how the cross and pommel were made, how the entire sword was assembled...... and that's it. Article done. Never have I read anything on sword polishing in medieval times, or how the Celts did it, or the Romans.

Like I said, perhaps this is a very stupid question, maybe I've been reading the wrong articles. But I really would like to know.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 12:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Grinding and polishing was done in steps (talking about high medieval/rennaissance here):
Great waterpowered stone wheels (about 2 m in diameter and some 30-40 cm thick) were set spinning by water wheels. A very effective grinding apparatus! The blade was supported across the knees or thighs of the grinder on a wooden board or tool similar to the haft of a scythe. In later times blade grinders are shown lying over the wheels on planks.

I visited a grinding shop in Solingen that dates from the 16th C (or earlier-can´t remember right now). On the ground floor were the great weels for corse grinding, next floor smaller stones of finer grit, next floor up, wooden wheels with emery compound fixed to the surface with hide glue (you can make the surface of the wooden wheel profiled to match certain blade sections or details-very clevr and effective) Polishing was done on leather faced wheels with a compound of oil, animal fat and some polishing medium. The exact mix of the polishing paste was a trade secret of the polisher, jealously guarded. You can use aluminium oxide, iron oxide, fine sand or even arsenic (!) for fine polishing.
This grinding shop had been in use up till modern times. They got electricity in the 1950´s...It is a beautifull place.
They still have a medieval polishing wheel used for finishing swords. It had lames of walrus hide as flaps sitting tightly arranged radially between two wooden "shields". The leather flaps were secured by dovetails locking in grooves on the insides of the wooden sides. The diameter was about 1.3 m and it was about 20 cm across the gringind surface. I was told such a set up would outlive two or three generations of polishers. Walrus hide is tough.
It was still covered by coagulated polishing goo...

The trick is using revolving wheels of stone, wood and or leather plus compounds of fat+oil in varying proportions, binding finer and finer grits of emery powders. It works exactly like any modern grinding belt or felt disc, only it takes more maintenance.
In some situations a profiled wheel wil be much more efficient, but then you need to make many very similar blades for that to be a good idea.

In earlier times we might guess they did much the same but with less use of big water wheels, more relying on manpower and working time.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 9:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Peter! I was hoping you'd answer this one.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Thomas Hoogendam




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 10:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Grinding and polishing was done in steps (talking about high medieval/rennaissance here):
Great waterpowered stone wheels (about 2 m in diameter and some 30-40 cm thick) were set spinning by water wheels. A very effective grinding apparatus! The blade was supported across the knees or thighs of the grinder on a wooden board or tool similar to the haft of a scythe. In later times blade grinders are shown lying over the wheels on planks.

I visited a grinding shop in Solingen that dates from the 16th C (or earlier-can´t remember right now). On the ground floor were the great weels for corse grinding, next floor smaller stones of finer grit, next floor up, wooden wheels with emery compound fixed to the surface with hide glue (you can make the surface of the wooden wheel profiled to match certain blade sections or details-very clevr and effective) Polishing was done on leather faced wheels with a compound of oil, animal fat and some polishing medium. The exact mix of the polishing paste was a trade secret of the polisher, jealously guarded. You can use aluminium oxide, iron oxide, fine sand or even arsenic (!) for fine polishing.
This grinding shop had been in use up till modern times. They got electricity in the 1950´s...It is a beautifull place.
They still have a medieval polishing wheel used for finishing swords. It had lames of walrus hide as flaps sitting tightly arranged radially between two wooden "shields". The leather flaps were secured by dovetails locking in grooves on the insides of the wooden sides. The diameter was about 1.3 m and it was about 20 cm across the gringind surface. I was told such a set up would outlive two or three generations of polishers. Walrus hide is tough.
It was still covered by coagulated polishing goo...

The trick is using revolving wheels of stone, wood and or leather plus compounds of fat+oil in varying proportions, binding finer and finer grits of emery powders. It works exactly like any modern grinding belt or felt disc, only it takes more maintenance.
In some situations a profiled wheel wil be much more efficient, but then you need to make many very similar blades for that to be a good idea.

In earlier times we might guess they did much the same but with less use of big water wheels, more relying on manpower and working time.



Mr. Johnsson, thank you so very much!!! This is just the kind of information I was looking for. Big Grin
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David R. Glier





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PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

*sigh*

Isn't the history of technology beautiful? Big Grin
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Helen Miller




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PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
*sigh*

Isn't the history of technology beautiful?


Absolutely! BUT living in a country that you can visit Medieval/Renaissance sites
is even better (unlike the USA) CHEERS! Happy

-"A woman's tongue is her sword, and she does not let it rust."
Proverb
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Björn Hellqvist
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005 1:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote



Here's a 14th century pic of a grinding wheel in action.

My sword site
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Allen W





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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005 9:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great Peter! Now how about the end user? Did he resharpen his swords? How? Or did he just drop it off to be reground?
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen W wrote:
Great Peter! Now how about the end user? Did he resharpen his swords? How? Or did he just drop it off to be reground?


I do not have any quotes to show, but my guess is that most users would have experience enough with edged tools to do most regular resharpening themselves, if need be. Then there were the cutlers: they catered for maintenance as well as mounting of swords.
Swords in armouries would have been taken care of by some bonded armourer or cutler.

What we lack today among the general population is a natural understanding of edged tools. Many discussions that surface time over on forums dedicated to swords related to sharpness and edge holding would seem strange to medieval man. It is like some future automobile afficionadoes discussing what you would have done in the 20th C if you ran out of gas while on the highway. That is no real mystery or everyday risk for us, apart from the odd bad day.

Sharpess of swords would be exactly the same in medieval times: a very obvious thing that most knew enough about not to have to bother about.


Last edited by Peter Johnsson on Tue 26 Apr, 2005 4:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005 10:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
It is like some future automobile afficionadoes discussing what you would have done in the 20th C if you ran out of gas while on the highway.


Peter, I love analogies. Many people know me as the analogy guy when I'm talking about the little things that life brings us. This is an awesome quote. Made me laugh.

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Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Peter. One of the reasons I ask is because there was a rather large whet stone found among the Sutton Hoo graves but I know of no similar finds.
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Patrick Brown




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 7:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I came across this post whilst searching for information on historical polishing methods, and all my questions are now answered! Thanks Peter, and huzzah for myArmoury!
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Marton Pap




Location: Hungary
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the info!
Now I know what to use our old millstones for Big Grin
Btw with these huge stones it wold have been quite easy to get nice big flat surfaces and the idea of leather wheels is really high-tech! Were the polishing weels as big as the grinding ones?
Regards!
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 9:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Note the troughs often shown beneath the grindstones. Seems they were often wetgrinders, which helps maintain the temper and reduce dust. Much nicer that way than a lot of modern equipment.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 2:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hm. Now that we've got fairly comprehensive information on European methods, I'm wondering if somebody could drop by and comment about the Arabic, persian, Chinese, African, and other practices in sword-polishing.
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