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Patrick Kelly
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 Posted: Thu 04 Jan, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | From what I was taught and experienced, it has always been explicitly stated that the escalation to deadly force ( or any tier in the continuum) need not be preceeded by the level below it; i.e. you match or jump one level above the threat. |
Then you've obviously never wasted time in court with a slick bottom feeding defense team who's trying to convince a maleable jury that you've used excessive force because you didn't precisely follow the steps of the "force continuum". This is why terms like these are no longer used by anyone other than the military, which never seems to be able to see the forest through the trees. My oldest son is currently serving in the Navy as a Master at Arms (Navy MP). Their "current" techniques and methods are so out of date as to be laughable to anyone in law enforcement.
As for tools..................................
The ASP is nigh worthless. In my fifteen years in law enforcement I've never seen one used effectively and decisively, and yes, this is by people trained in its use including me. All its use really amounts to is the general public seeing you do a "Rodney King" on someone. I've found it to be so useless that I no longer carry mine on my belt, but instead leave it in the car. This is only because it's part of my riot gear and I don't want to waste time going home to get it out of the sock drawer. I still have my original issue "yard-o-wood" that I keep in the trunk for those occasions where I need something like that, seems to work much better.
Pepper spray is a good tool that is usually effective to one degree or another. Unfortunately it can be just as effective on the officers involved, as my training officer and I found out years ago in the back bedroom of a run down trailer house, but I digress. (I should point out he was the one using the stuff, not me)
I personally have very mixed feelings about the Tazer. I've seen it be very effective and I've seen it fail completely. (yes, this is after it's been properly deployed) It's an interesting tool but I suspect we'll see it wain in popularity just as it did years ago in its first incarnation. Law enforcement is no different than any other facet of society in that we tend to look at the latest gadget as the answer to all our problems. I think we'll see the Tazer eventually fade from grace just like every other gadget we've been saddled with, especially after the negative health affects become better documented. I'm often asked why I don't carry a Tazer. I usually tell people that, in my years in law enforcement, I've yet to meet anyone I couldn't either talk into submission or beat into submission. I've never felt the need to send a few thousand volts of electricity through someones body to accomplish that.
Every tool will fail eventually. It's an interesting thing to watch young officers react when the gadgets they've become so dependent upon fail. They then have to utilize a few personal communication skills to solve the problem or use a little old-fashioned mano-e-mano police work, if it comes to that. All too often they haven't been taught those communication skills by either their parents or their agency, which is often why they've gotten to the point where the gadgets have to be pulled out, and the mano-e-mano part, well, we just won't go there. In my opinion, past a good head on your shoulders and the ability to communicate in an articulate fashion, the only things really needed are a strong arm and a steady trigger finger.
Technology doesn't make a society and gadgets don't make a cop.
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Allen Andrews
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| Posted: Fri 05 Jan, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | "While all of these things are valuable "tools in the tool box", I have long held the opinion that we, as a profession, need to spend more time training our officers themselves in things like thought proccess and communication skills rather than spending money on more gadgets. |
I have to agree. I think you see most progressive depts spending a lot of time training their officers as crisis intervention team (CIT) members, and the "Verbal Judo" training is still quite popular. A lot of it is just time on the job and experience 
It is interesting that we have had such different experiences around the ASP and the Taser. We have not yet had a Taser deployment that was not effective. That includes a deployment where only one probe struck the defendant and several drive stuns as well. It is, in my 21 Years of LE experience, the most reliable non lethal force option we have utilized. One of the real benefits has to do with the lack of long term lasting effects as a result of its use. In a profession where civil liability is a reality, you want to avoid having to "beat people into submission" as much as possible (beatings generally leave bruises and contusions that photograph well, and that defense team LOVES a set of ugly photos). Of course a defense team will try and spin whatever defense option you attempt to use. That just goes with the territory. But this duscussion is getting away from "melee weapons".
Obviously everyone's experience will vary. I have found the ASP to be a better tool than the standard hickory or plastic batons that used to be the norm in police work. The 3 foot riot batons are a whole different ball game. Their added reach and leverage makes them superior in many ways. Not that convenient to carry them on your duty gear though 
I agree with Patrick in that if you have "a good head on your shoulders" and are able to communicate well, you will be able to resolve the vast majority of situations without using physical force. In those remaining situations, you will have to do the best you can with whatever force options are available to you.
You want to see me really go out on a limb? I like the PR24s. I never have been with a dept that used them (I don't think anyone uses them now) but I love tonfas!
" I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood. "
Faramir son of Denethor
Words to live by. (Yes, I know he's not a real person)
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Fri 05 Jan, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick, as you said in your previous post that you rarely carry your baton with you. I found an article on batons from, I believe England (the statistics are shown from 3 areas) that has a pie chart on how many police officers use or even carry their batons with them. It says that 1% of the population has see police officers using batons, 15% just carrying their batons with them and 84% of officers are never seen with a baton at all.
the link to the info is : http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/prgpdfs/fprs11.pdf
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Alexander Hinman
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| Posted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Going back to the 19th and early 20th century, there was a trend of 'sword bayonets' which differ from other contemporary bayonets in being able to cut quite effectively, as well as having the ability to be detached from the rifle and used as short swords. A few good examples can be found here. In my opinion all of the French models could be considered sword bayonets, as could a few others like the Portuguese M1885 bayonet, and the British P1863 and P1907.
Truncheons and spade handles would sometimes be modified into morgensterns by pounding nails through. I know I've seen a picture of one somewhere, but can't put a finger on it... (maybe an Eyewitness book from my youth?)
And of course you have your axes and sharpened shovels.
I'm curious about the prevalence in modern armies of the khukri. Is it used much beyond the Ghurkas?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if the Kukri is used much by soldiers or special forces Worldwide but it's the shortest blade that has swordlike performance as well as machete or small axe performance.  ( Mean and effective and reasonably compact. )
Only the Smatchet might be the equivalent. ( Short very wide double edged blade not exactly the same but close in function to a leaf blade. )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smatchet
http://www.gutterfighting.org/smatchet.html
http://www.heinnie.com/cgi-bin/heinnie_store/...p;cart_id=
( On that last link you have to scroll down on the left side menu to smatchet for a pic and description. )
I have the limited edition one using the better steel.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
| Alexander Hinman wrote: | | Truncheons and spade handles would sometimes be modified into morgensterns by pounding nails through. I know I've seen a picture of one somewhere, but can't put a finger on it... (maybe an Eyewitness book from my youth?) |
To elaborate on what Alexander said about improvised "morning stars", the Diagram Group's Weapons: An International Encyclopedia from 5000 BC to 2000 AD shows a drawing of a club made by the troops on the Western Front of World War I for silent trench raids. Nails with their heads clipped off formed the spikes in a wooden club. Its head was bound with wire to keep the wood from spitting. The DK book Battle shows a British nail club, an Italian trench club of wood and metal, and a German metal rod used as a club.
Knuckle dusters daggers were also used in World War I. The back edge of the blade was sharpened so it would be easy to slit a sentries throat.
Obviously, none of these were the primary weapon of the soldiers in the trenches, but there were instances when they were useful (during night raids, for instance).
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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