Hello,

I only have experience with two "safe" blades for rapier practice, the double-wide epee and, the schlager.

What are the other types of practice rapier blades available? What do they look like? Who sells/makes them? What are their strengths and, weaknesses compared with the two I've mentioned?

The Del Tin practice blades and rebated blades are an inexpensive but decent choice. Darkwood Armory's line of practice blades are very good. Arms and Armor can make any of their current line up have a practice blade instead of a sharp, and those are also very good. All of those choices will serve you fine.

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but you absolutely do not want to be fencing rapier with either the schlager or the epee blade. Neither replicates a rapier. The epee blade is intended to simulate, unsurprisingly, a duelling epee of the 19th century, though it also works quite well for smallsword (which often have very similar blades). The schlager is meant for German duelling swords. If they're all you have, they'll do to start with (you can learn rapier with a stick, after all) but in the long run, if you're serious about learning, you will really need to get proper rapier simulators.

In Vol. 7, #2, Issue #26 of Renaissance magazine, Ramon Martinez was interviewed and said that he used 40" double wided epee blades for rapier practice. He said that this style of weapon was a close approximate of those that were used in the mid-17th century. Perhaps, though (and especially after reading the recent Tom Leoni article) the type of weapon used in the mid-17th century was different from that used previously?

The double-wide epee is also very safe and, let's one practice in an alive manner with an opponent, without worry about injury. Of course, one cannot just rely on that. They should use everything available to help them to understand rapier fighting. The foil was, after all, used as a training weapon for a smallsword, wasn't it? I think it has it's place.

Do you know of, or have any close-up pictures of the Del Tin blades? How about the Darkwood blades?

Thanks.

Mike West

A double wide epee might work good for smallsword practice, but wouldn't make a very good rapier simulator.


Two more alternatives you might look into are,

Angus Trim. His WMA rapier blades are mint, and from what I can tell through personal experience, are well made and built to last. The blunted edges of the blade havn't acquired any burs through use either, so that's a plus in my books.

If you're looking for a starter blade, you might check out the Hanwei "practical" line. I used one for almost 3 years before upgrading. :)

Good advice on ATrim and Hanwei, Mat. I've never used the ATrim blades myself, but I've heard a lot of good things, and I know Scott Wilson at Darkwood does hilts for them at a slightly higher price than his own blades. The Hanwei ones are definately servicable for those on a budget, but there are some quality control issues with those, unfortunately.

The 40" epee blades are much better than the standard blades for typical rapier work, though I find those to be much more in line with the very late rapiers (the ones that are essentially long smallswords). I very much disagree that double wide epee blades are safer than most practice rapier blades. In fact, it really is just the opposite: Double wide epee blades are very stiff. Almost all practice rapier blades are significantly more flexible. Some people prefer the stiffness, but I've never seen any need for it, so long as your blade isn't TOO whippy.

The foil (in the modern sense of the term) was not actually used for smallsword. It was actually used to teach 19th century duelling swords. There is definately a lot of overlap in style, so it wouldn't be out of the question to use a foil for smallsword practice, though.

Here's a nice overview of some things to consider when choosing a blade written by Steve Reich:

http://www.salvatorfabris.com/StartingInItalianRapier.shtml

I've never handled a Del Tin practice rapier, but would like to. I just noticed that Arms and Armor are now selling a flexible blade called a "nail" for the tip. I wonder if that's anything like the D.T.P.R?

I currently use a 36" d.w.e. I have also used a modified d.w.e. that was 43" long. The worst injury I've ever had was a bruise right under my right pectorial. I was wearing my 2 layer Triplette tunic.

Dear Mike,

I apologise in advance if this sounds offensive, but I see no point in not cutting to the chase.

If you cannot fence safely at full speed with an accurate replica rapier blade then you have no business fencing. All my rapier blades are accurate replicas of surviving originals and I won't accept anything different in my salle. In my opinion all of the "safe" practice blades on the market are rubbish (with the exception of the Arms and Armour one) and are completely unnecessary if you demand a modicum of control from your students. Isn't control of the weapon what makes a good fencer?

Cheers
Stephen

Thank you and, I'm not offended.

I'm not sure I could explain my point fully, or fully understand your point without fencing with you in person.

I would then be able to see what you meant by "full speed" and, "control."

I would also be able to see what you meant by an accurate rapier blade. I would not want to fence with any of my reproduction medieval swords, even those that weren't sharp. Still, I would have to see what you do in person before I would make a final judgement.

When I saw the Arms and Armor "nail" I was impressed as that's the only close-up I've seen of a practice rapier.

You make a good point Stephen, but for beginners wouldn't it be better to give them a practice blade rather than a true reproduction? I would think that it would be beneficial to use a practice rapier to learn the technique and proper control. Once you know the technique and proper control, I agree, you should be able to safelly use a true reproduction to fence with.I'm just curious as to how you view this, because I know you have a lot of experience with it.

What do you mean by an accurate rapier blade? Wouldn't the A&A nail blade be appropriate, or do you mean a true replica blade?

Sorry for all of the questions, I'm just a little confused and am looking for some clarification from someone more knowledgable in the subject than myself.

Thanks,
-James

Dear Mike,

By full speed I mean as fast as I can go. By control I mean always being able to put your sword where you want it when you want it as hard or soft as you want it. By accurate rapier blade I mean a perfect, but blunt copy of a surviving original piece, same length, same weight, same flex.

I routinely fence with blunt reproduction medieval swords and think that far too much rot is talked about how you supposedly can't.

Cheers
Stephen

Dear Mat,

By "safe" I was referring to the horribly bendy un-rapierlike things that people who have never fenced with an accurate replica falsely deem necessary to avoid any injury when fencing.

By rubbish I mean blades that don't handle at all like real rapier blades and which therefore distort the art.

I have occasionally handled and many times fenced with people using various inaccurate rapier simulators. I've not paid too much attention to make etc. Once I realise that they don't handle like a real rapier and they distort technique (try doing any sort of blade action on one of these horrible bendy things that many people use) I don't pay any more attention to them.

If you have trouble using a 2.5-3lb sword, go to the gym. I have petite 50 year old women who have no trouble and have never learned on light simulators.

Cheers
Stephen

Most people around here wear a 3 weapon fencing mask, or full steel helms with perf visors.

I suppose in terms of protection, modern olympic vests are pretty common and easy to come by.

Neck protection is a must. You can buy steel or hardened leather gorgets from various armories.


Leather gloves are easy to come by as well. If you're starting out, tig gloves (not the big blue gloves, but the more fitted welding gloves) make for a good starter pair, but will wear out quickly.

Revival clothing has some nice gloves amung other products that are worth checking out. :D
http://www.revivalclothing.com/catpages/cat_gamb_linen.htm

I'd also suggest a cup of some sort, should you plan too breed in the near future... Fluke shots happen, and when they do, you'll be EXTREMELY glad to have one of these. ;)

Dear Mike,

I typically fence in a reinforced fencing instructors jacket, mask, box, right vambrace and gloves. I ditch the vambrace for rapier. There is some video of a great bout between me and Maestro Sean Hayes on his site. This was the first time we had fenced with sword and buckler, though I had fenced Sean a couple of times previously at other weapons. Go to http://www.northwestacademyofarms.com/ , click on the seminars page - the video is on the right hand side near the top. I wish it were a lot larger and clearer...but it isn't. We are both using accurate replica arming swords. The sword I am using is the one illustrated in my book Medieval Sword and Shield and weighs 2lb 10oz.

I once did a full speed fight with steel swords with one of my fellow Stoccata Instructors with no protective equipment at all (though I wouldn't recommend this). It was at a University clubs recruiting day and the spokesman for a certain organisation that doesn't fight with steel sword, and which shall remain nameless, got up on stage and with a distinct sneer in our direction said that you can fight for real with fake weapons or fight fake with real weapons. So, once he'd finished his spiel my friend and I walked up and without any announcement put on a very fast and furious bout with no protective gear (we actually hadn't brought all our kit). At the end of it the chap who'd been having a go at us slunk off like a dog.

Control is central to all fighting. You need to know where your sword is at all times and be able to pull the force out of it at a moment's notice. Swing hard and fast and stop on the proverbial dime. You need to be able to do this BEFORE you start fighting.

Cheers
Stephen

So while you are using a real rapier, with bated blade, and are acting as if you're fighting for real, you pull the rapier out of the thrust at the last moment, before you strike, or without that much force that their protective gear cannot defend against?

The speed of the thrust may be a full speed, but the attack ends before you make serious contact?

Thank you.

Mike West

For protective gear in rapier I wear a mask, a pair of slightly padded gloves, and a fencing jacket. If I'm fencing against someone I'm not familiar with, I also add throat protection in the form of a gorget.

As for videos, I believe someone hosted a video of John O'Meara and myself fencing at this last year's WMAW rapier tournament. I think it's hosted on Google somewhere, I'll see if I can find it, and I'll post a link later.

I also recently did this video using a medieval single hander with rapier techniques to show that the techniques of rapier are not so specialized as to only work with one weapon only. It may not be exactly what you're looking for, but you can at least see the protective equipment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8428781260330923822

Now, about the rapier blade itself. First off, I completely agree with everything Stephen has said about bouting and control. I think, though, that people might be getting the wrong implication on what Stephen is saying about rapier blades. Antique rapiers DO flex. Some quite a bit. If you took an antique blade and filed the edge and tip off, and did something to further rebate the tip (e.g. a rubber blunt), you have yourself a practice sword. In some cases they'll be a little stiffer, in some cases they'll be as flexible as a modern fencing foil. So if you have a good rapier simulator, it won't be very different than an unsharpened real rapier blade.

Now, there are many who believe that a rapier blade should be a rigid steel rod, and I think that's silly. First off, there's the fact that I mentioned most period rapier blades have a great amount of flex. But there's also the fact that a real thrust with a real sharpened sword would penetrate the person. If I thrust with something rigid, that shock goes back into my arm, causing me to naturally "pull" the blow more than necessary. Without even worrying about safety, I'm actually practicing incorrectly if I do this. Having flex in the blade allows you to complete a proper lunge, although there are many techniques where we have to accept that bouting won't allow us to do. (e.g. There are techniques where Salvator Fabris's manual instruct us to lunge at the person, having the blade go through the chest and striking the person with the hilt behind that blade.)