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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Usage of the Knight's Lance Reply to topic
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Cor Böhms




Location: The Hague,The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2003

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri 15 Dec, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod Walker wrote:

Again you are confusing me. We didn't bring Hollywood into this, you did.
.


Hi Rod,

Please dont get confused so easy. I don't know who ' We' are. I do know that Gordon brought "Hollywood"
up in his post from yesterday 6.40 pm. I was only reacting from that point.

Best regards,
Cor

Audacia magia est
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Dec, 2006 1:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

People: act professionally and with respect to the other members of this site.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Dec, 2006 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod Walker wrote:

Quote:
May I remind you on the "Battle
of the golden spurrs", Kortrijk, Belgium 1302, An army of farmers and civil militians defeated there an army of 2000 French
Knights and collected 500 golden spurrs from the dead Knights from the battlefield. No Hollywood scenes there


Again you are confusing me. We didn't bring Hollywood into this, you did.
The French chivalry fought this battle dis-mounted over marshy ground strewn with obstacles that bogged them down and negated their armour making them easy prey for their lighter (unarmoured) opponents. A perfect use of tactics to give the upper hand to those that never could have prevailed in a stand up fight. I don't see your point in bringing this up, we were discussing the use of the lance not battles where knights were defeated by infantry. I am well aware of the limitations of knightly cavalry, Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt being the most famous and well known I suppose. But as I said we are straying from the original question.


Hm. Could you help me locate a primary source statement for this? The only one I've read--from the Annales Gandenses--does not state whether the French chivalry fought on horseback or on foot.
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Cor Böhms




Location: The Hague,The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2003

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri 15 Dec, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The French fought on horseback though the terrain was not optimal for charges.
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Last edited by Cor Böhms on Thu 21 Dec, 2006 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
Joined: 05 Feb 2004

Posts: 230

PostPosted: Fri 15 Dec, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well that will teach me to post of the hip when I am sitting at home full of pain killers for a compressed nerve in my neck Razz

I completely confused that battle with another.

My bad.

It was still great use of tactics by the Flemings. A brook used to break the momentum of the mounted charge and a solid wall of determined defenders. This is important, if the mounted charge slows down or gets bogged down against a wall of determined men then it can become very easy to attack.

The Godendag is also an effective weapon to use against an armoured and mounted knight.

It is an interesting battle, but the Flemish weren't all farmers and militia, it had a small proportion of nobles as well and I believe that some knightings took part on the Flemish side before the battle.

Quote:
I do believe in the power of a Knight in full armour on the battlefield, but not in the role of the broad jousting lance in the battle after the first charge


Ok I see where I lost track.

You need to remove the word 'jousting' from in front of lance. A lance is a lance is a lance right up until the late 15thC as far as we know. In the 16thC that are made hollow and brittle for the joust and as such then they are a 'jousting' lance,

Cavalry, especially heavy cavalry, is most effective when moving at speed with other heavy cavalry. This is why the charge executed at speed with the lance is the main tactic of the mounted knight. Speed of horse and sheer smashing power. The desired tactic is to then disengage, regroup, rearm with a new lance and then charge again. Of course this didn't always happen and if after breaking the line and being in amongst the enemy then the lance would be discarded and other hand weapons used.

And now having strayed a looooooong way off the original question. Justin, I will have those references for you later today,,,,,,,, as soon as I find my books.

Also, on the matter of civility. I didn't think there was any uncivility in this conversations. For my part I may have been a little abrupt, but due to my neck/shoulder and the painkillers I am on I can only sit and concentrate at the computer for very short periods of time.

If I am at fault then I apologise.

Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Cor Böhms




Location: The Hague,The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2003

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 1:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Rod,

I also think that there was no uncivility in our conversation.
Grown up people have the right to have a dispute on a forum, as long as they don't
offend eachother. And that was by no means the case. There were no hard feelings
on my side anyway.

Best regards,
Cor

Audacia magia est
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 2:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod, (I'm coming to this thread late) in your video, that's not a historical saddle is it?

Far be it from me to critic a fellow actually doing it, I merely want to be sure I understand what I'm seeing.

I'm brought to understand that a proper war saddle has a shelf behind the posterior of the man riding Also, I'm brought to understand via Oakeshott, a Knight and his horse, that the technique was to shove your legs almost straight out into the stirrups, and to press your rear against the ... glutaeus maximus supporter, thus more or less clamping yourself into the saddle between the shelf and the stirrups.

I'd be most curious to see what would happen if a man did just that, and hit at the gallop.

But I sure wouldn't be want to be the first to take that hit.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
Joined: 05 Feb 2004

Posts: 230

PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 3:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi George, from memory it was a stock saddle supplied by the horse owner. The tournament was in Canada so I flew in from Australia and had to use the tack supplied.

Here is a pic of the saddles I use here at home.

My early period (13th-14thC) saddle.


My (not quite right) 15thC saddle.


And the first saddle in use. Here I am hitting a shock quintain with a solid lance fitted with a steel coronel.


This pic I was using a solid lance with steel coronel and using an arret and graper. The impact was huge and the only thing that kept me on was the saddle.

Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Allen Andrews




Location: Maine USA
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Initially I didn't pay too much attention to this thread since I haven't ridden a horse in 20 years and it is unlikely I will take up jousting. But when I did look and saw Rod's youtube clip, I said to myself "wow, that makes my "extreme" pastimes look pretty tame!"(actually first I said "ouch"). Anyway I am impressed with the life you put into this topic!

Having said that, I just have to ask; the neck injury, is it related to jousting?
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J. Bedell




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey,

I have been following this thread and it's very interesting but I'm afraid I'm a little confused on some of the terminology. What is an arret and graper?

Thanks,
-James

The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cor and Rod,
If there was a moderator warning about incivility or like conduct, it was for good reason. Discussion of it in this thread is inappropriate and off-topic. If you have questions or concerns about a moderator's actions, please message the moderator directly.

Let's have no more discussion about this in this thread.

Happy

ChadA

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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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Posts: 2,698

PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod Walker wrote:
Cavalry, especially heavy cavalry, is most effective when moving at speed with other heavy cavalry. This is why the charge executed at speed with the lance is the main tactic of the mounted knight. Speed of horse and sheer smashing power. The desired tactic is to then disengage, regroup, rearm with a new lance and then charge again. Of course this didn't always happen and if after breaking the line and being in amongst the enemy then the lance would be discarded and other hand weapons used.


It seems fro mthe battle accounts that most medieval cavalry encounters were decided by the first charge, and in the majority that weren't the participants usually wheeled bac kand regrouped for another charge rather than mingling with the enemy. If you've been in a mingled melee once, you'd want to avoid it at all costs because in that kind of situation you're as likely to get hit from the back as in the front--and you would have scarcely been able to defend against the former.

And of course, using the lance to ward against blows from the rear was possible (and was taught in the manuals) but was somewhat counter-intuitive.
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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
Joined: 05 Feb 2004

Posts: 230

PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Allen, there may be some damage there from jousting but I turned around to say goodbye to my wife when she was going to work and I compressed the nerve then. Figures doesn't it Wink

Hi James, this is an arret with a lance couched upon it. The graper (missing in the pic) is a small leather, wooden or metal disc that sits behind the hand and in front of the arret. This stops the lance being forced backwards upon impact and transfers the shock to the cuirass.





It is more commonly known as a lance rest, though I prefer arret as this better describes what it actually does. It arrests (French, Arret) the lance. The arret is not there to take the weight of a heavy lance, just to arrest its backward movement upon impact.

Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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J. Bedell




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Rod, I assumed that it was a "lance rest" but wanted some verification.

Thanks,
-James

The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Back to the original concept about some knights preferring or choosing to use weapons other than the lance...

At least in fiction and some accounts of 12th century melee tournament the lance was primarily used at the beginning of the melee. Those skilled with it did shatter it (several fictional accounts and couple early 13th century poets that wrote very realistically of what they witnessed at the tournaments.) After the initial mass lance charge, most of the melee period (about one half day) was spent with hand weapons (prevalently sword.) It was recorded by William Marshal's biographer that Henry the Young King observed that the Count of Hainault restrained his forces from participating in the mass lance charge, and then took greater advantage by entering after the initial masses had wounded and weakened themselves. Henry the Young king subsequently copied this strategy. This tactic is what is actually described in the Lagny Sur Marne account if one thinks about it.

The largest boast I have run across of rearming with lance in melee tournament was Ulrich Von Lichtenstein (~1226 Kroneuburg if I remember it right) in his autobiographical account stating he rearmed 9 times in one melee. Ulrich was a notorious boaster in all things related to joust or lance, and this number of 9 lances (probably in one half day of melee) was undoubtedly meant to be extremely impressive.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Gordon Frye




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 8:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My apologies for not having posted for some time, but the power was out in this part of Washington State for a few days, and thus my computer fix was out the window for a while... Anyway...

Benjamin, indeed, the lighter lance or spear was not a "one shot weapon", as you point out the Spaniards used it to great effect against their native adversaries in the New World. It was used very much as the Normans were using their own rather light spears, both couched and overhand. (They discovered that thrusting it to the face was the most effective move when things got bogged down, and threatened to become the melée).

Cor, I've not delved into many Medaeval manuscripts, but I'm pretty well versed in Renaissance ones, and yes, the Knight is expected to return to his lines for fresh spears, and a fresh horse if need be. Knights were expeced to keep between three and five Great Horses on campaign for just such a purpose, and a retinue of servants to keep them ready for battle. I guarrantee that this is not a figment of my fevered imagination. Cool But if you can come up with documentation suggesting that this was not the case and that I am mistaken in this, I will bow to the better research.

As Rod notes, Cavalry was best employed against other Cavalry as a weapon of Shock, but whether against Infantry or Cavalry, getting involved in a melée is not to your advantage.

(BTW, Cor, while the "Battle of the Golden Spurs"/ Courtrai, in 1302 was a huge defeat for the French Gendarmerie, the Battle of Cassel in 1328 was as great a defeat for the Flemmings, who were in turn slaughtered by the French. Defensive Foot tactics have the disadvantage of needing the enemy to attack them, and when the French waited them out, things went poorly).

Rod, as always, your wonderful kit is a pleasure to behold! Thanks for posting the pics of your arrét!

Allons!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Cor Böhms




Location: The Hague,The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2003

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
Knights were expeced to keep between three and five Great Horses on campaign for just such a purpose, and a retinue of servants to keep them ready for battle.
Gordon


Dear Gordon,

Being a Knight does not say that you were a rich man. Some Knights where glad to have one good horse and armour.
I don't think that you can speak in general terms of a Knight, expected (by whom?) to have up to five Great Horses(worth a fortune in these days) The Dutch honorable Lady Dr. J.M.van Winter, from an old Dutch Knightly family, wrote the book
"Ridderschap", that's is 'Knighthood"in Dutch. As a historian, she did a deep rechearch at Knighthood in North Europe,
and came to the conclusion that the way as whe see the Knight nowadays ( rich and full of splendor ) does not
allways stroke with reality. Being dubbed a Knigh, does not mean 'being made a rich man'. It is allways inviting to generalize , but from a point of science very tricky.
I did some more rechearch and have to admit that I was wrong , saying that the lance in the shape as
used in tournament was not used on the battlefield, sorry for that.

Best,
Cor.

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Gordon Frye




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cor Böhms wrote:

Being a Knight does not say that you were a rich man. Some Knights where glad to have one good horse and armour.
I don't think that you can speak in general terms of a Knight, expected (by whom?) to have up to five Great Horses(worth a fortune in these days) The Dutch honorable Lady Dr. J.M.van Winter, from an old Dutch Knightly family, wrote the book
"Ridderschap", that's is 'Knighthood"in Dutch. As a historian, she did a deep rechearch at Knighthood in North Europe,
and came to the conclusion that the way as whe see the Knight nowadays ( rich and full of splendor ) does not
allways stroke with reality. Being dubbed a Knigh, does not mean 'being made a rich man'. It is allways inviting to generalize , but from a point of science very tricky.

I did some more rechearch and have to admit that I was wrong , saying that the lance in the shape as
used in tournament was not used on the battlefield, sorry for that.

Best,
Cor.


In the earlier eras, absolutely true, being a Knight did not necessarily make you wealthy. By the later years of the "Era of Knighthood" as it were, when you became rich enough, you HAD to become a Knight. Check out the history of the English Wars of the Roses for that one. Make sufficient money as a Merchant, and the Crown would demand that you either pay the fees for Knighthood, OR pay a much higher tax to NOT become a Knight. Not exactly the stuff of Romance and Chivalry to be sure.

On Campaign, there were certain requirements laid down by higher authorities (be they the Templar Hierachy, or the French Crown, or other authorities commanding the raising of troops) and to be an homme d'armes and receive the pay of such on campaign, you had to fulfill those requirements in full. That's not to say that people didn't try to get around those, or that they were fulfilled even in more than passing, BUT those were the requirements. If you couldn't afford to keep the required number of horses (Shakespeare refers to "selling the pasture to buy the horse" in Henry V) then you had to muster in at a lesser rank, such as in the case of the compagnies d'ordonnance, an Archer. The French Marshall Blaise de Monluc first mustered as an Archer in such a compagnie d'ordonnance, since although he was of an ancient family he couldn't afford the required kit to be an homme d'armes. Likewise William Marshall, who didn't begin life as a rich man, through dint of skill and intelligence managed to become not only a knight of renown but also a very rich and powerful man by the time he died.

So I guess I'm wondering what it is that you're getting at here. If you are questioning the veracity of what is being stated here by others, please know that Rod and I (and others) are quoting from primary sources and well-researched secondary sources for our information. I am sure that you have access to many sources which we do not due to our ignorance of various languages that these sources are written in. So I would invite you to bring them forward, if you please. In fact, if you read French, I would very much like to know what your impression of the ordonnances is.

On the other hand, we may well be suffering from some major translation difficulties in this thread. Indeed, to be a Knight (Ritter, Ridder, Chevalier, Caballero) in the earlier days of Feudalism was much lower in both material wealth AND in social position than it later became. So if you're saying that a Knight in 1100 was often poor, and without sufficient wealth to own more than one war horse, and therefore didn't get out much, then you're probably right. On the other hand, there weren't many Knights on campaign in 1450 who couldn't afford at least several war horses in their train, or they wouldn't be out there in the first place. And they certainly wouldn't be considered a "Knight".

Cheers,

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Cor Böhms




Location: The Hague,The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2003

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Gordon,

I don't have to prove my "being right", but I have a bit of a problem with the way that you put things in such an absolute way. For instance, the war of the roses was a British affair, that has nothing to do with Knighhood in the rest of Europe. In the late European Middle Ages there was much more social mobility than in later centuries.There were noble familys of high rank that has never seen a battlefield at all. Rich merchants were having more power and wealth in the flourishing towns of the 15 th. century, than some Knights could ever dream of. A lot of that familys were nobled, for the financial benefits of the "crown", without having to be a Knight (noble mounted man at arms). Every man of means was paying taxes. nothing's changed. I work as an heraldic artist ( and as a genealogist ) for the Dutch High Court of Nobility. so I think that I know what I am talking about.

Best,
Cor

Audacia magia est
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Folks,
Let's remember that we should not adopt a defensive tone when posting.

Happy

ChadA

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