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Lafayette C Curtis
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 Posted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Finding information about the Burgundian Ordinances is easy. It's the French that's giving me a headache. For example, we know that the Burgundian company was initially divided into ten groups of ten lances each, and this group was further divided into two unequal chambres containing respectively six and four lances. Later on it adopted the Italian organization of four 25-lance squadrons further divided into four 6-lance chambres. But do we have similar information for the French? I've been puzzling about this subject for a few weeks now. Did they use 10-lance or 25-lance sub-units in their companies? Or did they have no intermediate organization at all between the company and the lance? Or do we simply don't have any information about it?
Of course, any help would be appreciated, although I've grown a little pessimistic at this stage. And it seems like the period I'm researching--the 1460s--is particularly lacking in sources about the French Grande Ordonnance companies themselves, with more focus being given to their Burgundian cousins and the francs-archers.
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: |
Italian being???
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Peter;
To add to what Daniel stated most elequently, in the period we are discussing, Northern Europeans and indeed Iberians considered as "Italian" anyone from the Italian peninsula, be they Calabrian, Piedmontese or anyone in between. Just as "Burgundian" refered to any force from the Netherlands or of the old Burgundian Inheritance during the period from 1450-1550 or so. I believe fully that I am indeed using the verbage and concepts of the day and age, and am not bound by either modern political geography nor linguistic constructs, thank you very much.
Daniel, thank you VERY much for the information! You've done an excellent job of filling in the enormous gaps in my own posts, and expanding them greatly as well. As always, your posts are most informative and educational! I look forward to more of them!
According to James B. Wood in "The King's Army", he encountered in the documents of the Wars of Religion period companies of 20, 30, 40, 50,60,80,100 and even 120 Lances, corresponding to authorized strengths varying from 50 to 320 men. But the vast majority of companies found in the Wars of Religion are the 30 and 60 Lance companies. However, the letters of commission always refered to them as 50 and 100 lance companies, respectively. And the larger sized companies were in general reserved for Grand Nobles to command, leaving the lower-paid captaincies to lower gentry.
One of the main points that Dr. Wood, Dr. Ron Love in "All the King's Men" (above) and Dr. Bert S. Hall in "Weapons and Warfare of Renaissance Europe" harken upon is that Heavy Cavalry at this time was not only still an effective battlefield force, but indeed, gained in their power. The French Crown did everything it could to increase the number of companies of the Gendarmerie, and they, their Huguenot adversaries and the Spanish authorities in the Netherlands hired as many German Pistoliers as possible to increase their numbers of Heavy Cavalry. And in battle after battle the same sad refrain was repeated: one side or another's Heavy Cavalry was driven off, and the remaining Infantry was subsequently slaughtered. Not exactly the popular history version of post-Medaeval combat.
Lafayette, we'll see what we can dig up for earlier information on the compagnies d'ordonnance, though it's certainly outside of my own area of expertise.
Allons!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Guilherme Dias Ferreira S
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| Posted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to bother you guys, but I got one more question: existed in this time considerable number of french knights that was not integrated by the gendarmerie. And before anything, I would like to thank you guys, specially you Gordon, for answer, with devotion and patience, my questions.
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Guilherme;
You are most welcome. In fact, I am sure that all of us are very happy that you asked the question in order that we might discuss this most interesting subject in such depth!
Per the hommes d'armes who were with an army, but not a part of the established compagnies d'ordonnance, there certainly were many. Some were adventurers who simply didn't wish to be bothered with the more mundane chores of working as part and parcel of an army. Others were trying to get in to a compagnie d'ordonnance, and hoped by their presence that they would be accepted. Some just were followers of a particular general or grandee, and were a part of his retinue and again outside of the normal organization of the ordonnances. At any rate, I would imagine that one could find such "free lances" attaching themselves to most Medaeval and Renaissance armies at almost any given time.
One interesting item is that just prior to the Battle of Ceresole in 1544, a fairly large number of these unattached "gentlemen adventurers" crossed the Alps and joined the army of the duc D'Enghien, and gave a much-needed added weight to his depleated force of Gendarmerie.
Again, we're always glad to help with such information, especially if it allows us to learn more from one another as well!
Allons!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 05 Dec, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon Frye wrote: | | Lafayette, we'll see what we can dig up for earlier information on the compagnies d'ordonnance, though it's certainly outside of my own area of expertise. |
Well, I'll be waiting, although I won't blame you if you can't find anything meaningful--nor would I be surprised. It seems like the problem is that the relevant primary source information itself is missing.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 05 Dec, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One interesting item is that just prior to the Battle of Ceresole in 1544, a fairly large number of these unattached "gentlemen adventurers" crossed the Alps and joined the army of the duc D'Enghien, and gave a much-needed added weight to his depleated force of Gendarmerie. |
Anf it's too bad that the battle managed to return it into a sadly depleted condition in spite of the French victory.
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Tue 05 Dec, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | Quote: | | One interesting item is that just prior to the Battle of Ceresole in 1544, a fairly large number of these unattached "gentlemen adventurers" crossed the Alps and joined the army of the duc D'Enghien, and gave a much-needed added weight to his depleated force of Gendarmerie. |
And it's too bad that the battle managed to return it into a sadly depleted condition in spite of the French victory. |
Indeed. And that Henry VIII was threatening the Northern Borders of France at the same time did nothing to increase the fortunes of the army in the Piedmont, either! But the French dream of an Italian empire was a vain fantasy at any rate.
Per research material on the compagnies d'ordonnance: I am given to understand that Ferdinand Lot published some well researched materials on the subject of the French forces during the Habsburg-Valois Wars (as noted by Daniel Straberg above) but I am not aware that any of these works have been translated to English, unfortunately.
I suggest posting a question over on Armour Archive though. Bob Reed, who posts under "Chef de Chambre" has done a great deal of research on compagnies d'ordonnance and hommes d'armes (admittedly Burgundian, but with good information on the French) of the time period you are interested in. http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/index.php ; He also has a forum, the Firestryker Board, which focuses on the 15th Century, and his interests in that era, so might try him there, too. http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
Good Luck!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Wed 06 Dec, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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All right. I'm going to check those forums right away.
BTW, I'm wondering why nobody has written a feature article on either Blaise de Montluc or Pierre de Terrail (Bayard, that is).
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Guilherme Dias Ferreira S
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| Posted: Wed 06 Dec, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: |
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These french unattached "gentlemen adventurers" were so well armoured than the gendarmes? Gordon, you say that these knights were many, so they were as many or more numerous than the knights integrated by the compagnies d'ordonnance[i]?[/i]
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Wed 06 Dec, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Guilherme Dias Ferreira S wrote: | | These french unattached "gentlemen adventurers" were so well armoured than the gendarmes? Gordon, you say that these knights were many, so they were as many or more numerous than the knights integrated by the compagnies d'ordonnance[i]?[/i] |
Guilherme;
I would imagine that they were on the order of the same armament as their fellow hommes d'armes of the compagnies d'ordonnance, but nowhere near as numerous, especially on a campaign. It was the goal of most of them to become members of said compagnies, as they they would receive pay from the crown for their services, rather than simply getting some largess from a great lord in who's service they may be, or hoping for some plunder that might come their way. At least this is my understanding from reading excerpts from Montluc.
The compagnies d'ordonnance were, for their day and age, quite well organized and paid. As I recall, one of the primary reasons the French Crown organized and kept them on the Royal Payroll was to keep the younger nobles and gentry out of mischief, and to try to reduce the tendency for warlordism that usually accompanied the civil unrest that came in the wake of long wars (such as the Hundred Years War).
Lafayette;
Indeed, I would LOVE to read Montluc's "Commentaries" but haven't run down the English translation (1674) yet, as well as Bayard's "Loyal Servitor". Both are widely quoted, certainly, but not all that commonly found. (No doubt some correspondent here will be able to put his hands directly on a copy and tell me how easy it was, however!  ) But true enough, not many articles devoted to them, which is sad. There's a Doctoral Dissertation for you to work towards! 
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
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We clearly have evidence for these gentlemen volunteers both in the Italian Wars and in teh Wars of Religion--in the latter we even have signed letters from the commanders on both sides asking their mean to "bring along a few friends" or something like that. And, as late as in the 17th-century English Civil War, the Royalist side had several regiments of horse composed of noble and gentlemen volunteers serving without pay.
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Thu 07 Dec, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | We clearly have evidence for these gentlemen volunteers both in the Italian Wars and in the Wars of Religion--in the latter we even have signed letters from the commanders on both sides asking their mean to "bring along a few friends" or something like that. And, as late as in the 17th-century English Civil War, the Royalist side had several regiments of horse composed of noble and gentlemen volunteers serving without pay. |
Lafayette;
Oh, absolutely! There were always scores or more of Gentlemen Volunteers serving without pay during all of these conflicts. In fact, probaly the vast majority of Huguenot cavalry forces, both of the Gendarmerie and cheveaux-lčger type, were unpaid volunteers fighting for their "Honour and The Religion" against those whom they saw as oppressors (and political opponents as well). When Henri of Navarre/IV of France wrote to his followers to "bring a few friends" he wasn't being altruistic at all, he needed every man and horse he could gather, since he couldn't afford to pay them more than a pittance.
The plus side was, since he didn't have to pay them, and could spend his paltry funds on mercenaries, such as German Reiters and the like.
There is in Shakespeare's "Henry V" a comment about "They sell the pasture now, to buy the horse" reflects the prohibitive cost of a good warhorse (of which an homme d'armes required at least two, plus a nag), and infers that many a gentleman penured himself in order to porperly equip himself for the Wars. And when actual pay was not forthcoming, it became very, very difficult to hold together an army made up of such volunteers. Thus only a gentleman of dash, ability and extraordinary personal charm, such as Henri of Navarre, could lead such an army through years of struggle to eventual victory.
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Guilherme Dias Ferreira S
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| Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: |
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I think that the lancer leaders were not all knights. If that were true, anyone could say what the percentage of the non-knights lancer leaders in comparison with all lancer leaders? And, still between the lancer leaders, if they had a different war equipment, with respect to quality, weight and price, among them (inside the idea that they were not all knights)
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Guilherme Dias Ferreira S wrote: | | I think that the lancer leaders were not all knights. If that were true, anyone could say what the percentage of the non-knights lancer leaders in comparison with all lancer leaders? And, still between the lancer leaders, if they had a different war equipment, with respect to quality, weight and price, among them (inside the idea that they were not all knights) |
"Knight" or not, the homme d'armes of a lance was still a nobleman, though perhaps not a very high one. An archier could be of non-noble blood (though most seem to have been young and/or poor nobility), but to become the leader of the lance, it was pretty much a requirement (though one could become ennobled in the process of becoming the homme d'armes) As far as "Knights" vs. non-knights, you would have to look into one of the various books (in French) concerning the nobility of the day and age you are interested in, as there are a few that actually go into some detail on the rank and status of many of the compagnie d'ordonnance leadership.
One of the primary requirements for service as an homme d'armes though was owning the proper horses and equipment, which was ruinously expensive. As of the 1560's, an homme d'armes was required to own full cap-á-pie armour with close helmet, lances, sword, pistol and mace, an arming saddle, barding for the horses and two suitable war horses, along with a nag and boy to care for his animals and equipment. I am running under the assumption that this was identical to earlier ordnances and, if anything, less strict and demanding. (I was under the impression that earlier ordnances required the maintenance of three great horses by the homme d'armes.) Archiers on the other hand were only required to maintain one war horse and nag, and wear three-quarter armour, all of this being a MUCH cheaper proposition.
I am sure that in the course of wars and campaigns, certain ordnances were acknowledged more in the breach than in the obeying, so some degree of lattitude is expected. But still, any leader of a Lance was going to have to fulfill certain basic requirements to be effective in his position, and they probably wouldn't differ all that much from their fellows of the same social status, or they would risk loosing it. Great Lords would of course maintain themselves in high style no matter what, and their less fortunate companions would do whatever possible to keep themselves up to at least some standard of serviceablilty.
I hope this answers your question?
Cheers,
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Guilherme Dias Ferreira S
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| Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to know where I can find good gendarme photos (not drawn images) in the internet. It's quite difficult to search these photos in the google.
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Guilherme Dias Ferreira S wrote: | | I would like to know where I can find good gendarme photos (not drawn images) in the internet. It's quite difficult to search these photos in the google. |
A great source for photographs of fine examples of armoured horsemen, aka hommes d'armes, may be found no further away than the "Albums" section of this website. Go to the museum collections section, specifically that of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, where among other fine photo's you'll find this one:
Other similar photographs may be found in other sections of the same site.
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Guilherme, I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but I'm afraid I get the impression that you're asking us to do all your research for you. Perhaps you should start ranging out into the Web and checking up sites like the ORB ( http://the-orb.net ) and NetSERF ( http://www.netserf.org ) for both primary and secondary sources. And there's a translated primary account you might want to check out, because it covers the early years of the Ordonnance gendarmes' existence quite nicely--it's Philippe de Commynes's memoirs here: http://www.r3.org/bookcase/de_commynes/decom_1.html
I assure you, doing independent research is not that onerous once you get used to it. It is a good idea to maintain contact with other scholars in order to compare findings and avoid misconceptions, but you will not gain anything if you simply rely on what other people give to you rather than checking out the facts and opinions yourself.
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Thu 08 Feb, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would like to know where I can find good gendarme photos (not drawn images) in the internet. It's quite difficult to search these photos in the google. |
I think i´m a bit late, but i have the same problem fellow. I´m tired too of typing ¨Gendarme in Google or Yahoo and finding images of a policeman. Here, as Gordon said, you can find pretty good armours, specially in the Higgins Museum. If you search in the last updated photos section and you have enough patience to browse 392 pages of beautiful images you will find something useful.
These images are from the Higgins museum, but i found most of them browsing the 392 pages. I hope it can be helpful.
P.D.
Please, if you find some more, let me know.
Thanks
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The guy with the blue skirt (bases or waffenrock) Can be described as a dimounted gendarme.
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Here is a frontal photo of the Gendarme wearing a Maximillian armour.
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This one is a 1560 Italian, but armours were exported to different countries. This design of armour was made around 1500, so, an earlier version can fit as a Gendarme armour with plumes and Waffenrock.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Ouch. That guy's in Vom Tag against an armored opponent?
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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i think the gendarme can use protective armours, like the ones with big pauldrons and so on, wht i´m not sure,(But i guess) is if they still used the metal fauld and tasset combination under the waffenrock.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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