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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
Joined: 31 Aug 2003

Posts: 634

PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: rotating around the grip?         Reply with quote

Was the centre grip round shield (e.g. Saxon, Norse) meant to twist around the grip when it was hit (other than along the grip axis, obviously), thus absorbing some of the energy of the striking weapon? Sorry if this has beeen dealt with already.
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Martin Wilkinson





Joined: 05 Mar 2006

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

can you explain what you mean more clearly, possibly with diagrams? Because i just can't work out what you mean...

It could just be that the cold is forcing my brain not to work...

"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."

Schola Gladiatoria
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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
Joined: 31 Aug 2003

Posts: 634

PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Wilkinson wrote:
can you explain what you mean more clearly, possibly with diagrams? Because i just can't work out what you mean...

It could just be that the cold is forcing my brain not to work...



I doubt it's you. More likely (far more likely) bad communication on my part. I'll try again. If you hold a centre grip shield so that the grip is passing vertically through your hand, and something impacts it (an arrow say) one one side of the front face, will that side of the face be pushed back a little, the grip still being vertical but having rotated a little about its long axis in your hand. There would be some resistance to this rotation, depending on how tightly you are holding the thing, what sort of friction there is between your hand and the grip material, and how much the grip deviates from being circular in section, but i was thinking that, if hit hard enough, it will turn. If that is the case, some of the energy of the arrow would be lost in moving the shield, and less would thus be available for penetration. Am I making any more sense yet?

I was thinking that this might be a situation analogous to Maille being better defense if it can give a little.

I can see that there are other advantages to the centre grip (as against arm straps), such as it being easier to punch with the boss, or just that you can hold it further from your body and give a greater protective 'shadow' , but I wondered if absorbing energy might be another one.
Geoff
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Geoff Wood wrote:
... I was thinking that, if hit hard enough, it will turn. If that is the case, some of the energy of the arrow would be lost in moving the shield, and less would thus be available for penetration.


I think the kind of motion you describe does exist indeed. I'm not sure, though, that energy loss would be significant in the case of a hit by an arrow. Basically the arrow is much lighter than the shield, and it travels at great speed. In this case, my memories of impact theories tell me that the object with the big mass will not move much, and that most of the energy of the arrow will end up being used for penetration anyway. Possibly true even if you were not holding the shield at all.

That's not to say that this motion cannot be useful in other cases. For example, an impact from an axe would be a different story. The axe could hack into the shield if it was firmly static, but if it's allowed to give a little as you say, it could be significant.

Note that even a shield held with arm straps can have this faculty. You'd just have to hold it with your arm free to move and not try to block, but rather to absorb or set aside the attack. At least that's how I figure you can use it, but maybe people training regularly with shields should correct me. It's true that with a center grip I imagine you don't have much choice, it will be hard to make a strong block anyway... Except if you press it against your shoulder, maybe.

Regards

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
Joined: 31 Aug 2003

Posts: 634

PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov, 2006 1:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Geoff Wood wrote:
... I was thinking that, if hit hard enough, it will turn. If that is the case, some of the energy of the arrow would be lost in moving the shield, and less would thus be available for penetration.


I think the kind of motion you describe does exist indeed. I'm not sure, though, that energy loss would be significant in the case of a hit by an arrow. Basically the arrow is much lighter than the shield, and it travels at great speed. In this case, my memories of impact theories tell me that the object with the big mass will not move much, and that most of the energy of the arrow will end up being used for penetration anyway. Possibly true even if you were not holding the shield at all.

That's not to say that this motion cannot be useful in other cases. For example, an impact from an axe would be a different story. The axe could hack into the shield if it was firmly static, but if it's allowed to give a little as you say, it could be significant.

Note that even a shield held with arm straps can have this faculty. You'd just have to hold it with your arm free to move and not try to block, but rather to absorb or set aside the attack. At least that's how I figure you can use it, but maybe people training regularly with shields should correct me. It's true that with a center grip I imagine you don't have much choice, it will be hard to make a strong block anyway... Except if you press it against your shoulder, maybe.


Regards


Vincent
thanks for the response. Yes, maybe an arrow was a poor choice of example. I suppose i was trying to illustrate strikes on the face instead of the edge and with an arrow the opportunity for further confusion as between the two seemed to be reduced. As you say, keeping the arm free would also allow some energy to be absorbed in movement of the mass. My thoughts were wandering around the idea that the 'give' inherent in the design of the centre grip shield may be intentional - a design advantage perhaps offsetting the difficulty of makes a strong block which you referred to. I know that on one of my centre grip shields I put an arm strap on and it just seemed easer to use for things like strong blocks or sweeping aside. I know that the arm strap is not historically correct and I'm sure experts like Mr Hand could point out that my comfort with it was just an illustration of how wrongly I was using the shield ( I have a bit of a history of not knowing how to hold things), but it did set me thinking if offsetting advantages inherent in not having the strap.
Anyway, enough of my blather
thanks again
Geoff
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov, 2006 3:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Geoff, From what I understand of Stephen Hand's theories on shield use, You tended to turn the shield from one side of the body to the other. If you did this in responce to a blow, you might end up in the position you describe, but it wouldn't be because your shield was hit, but because you timed it to end up there in the process of deflection.

that said, it looks like this sort of thing did happen, for example if you hold the shield out flat, and you are fighting Stephen Hand, he will step in like your shield isn't there, and try to wack you in the teeth with his shield. Your shield will twist under the impact, (Which he calls 'tableing") and you'll be completely exposed to a sword thrust on the other side.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
Joined: 31 Aug 2003

Posts: 634

PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov, 2006 3:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Geoff, From what I understand of Stephen Hand's theories on shield use, You tended to turn the shield from one side of the body to the other. If you did this in responce to a blow, you might end up in the position you describe, but it wouldn't be because your shield was hit, but because you timed it to end up there in the process of deflection.

that said, it looks like this sort of thing did happen, for example if you hold the shield out flat, and you are fighting Stephen Hand, he will step in like your shield isn't there, and try to wack you in the teeth with his shield. Your shield will twist under the impact, (Which he calls 'tableing") and you'll be completely exposed to a sword thrust on the other side.


Mr Hill
Tableing - thanks, not a term I'd come across in this context.
regards
Geoff
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