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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Because the pics shown only show relative positions of sword, shield, armour & potentially vulnerable body parts I was mostly concerned about damage to edges that might happen when swords are in close proximity and at some undefined speed. I did assume that it wouldn't have been anywhere near the speed used with blunts or wasters but the fact that things were done in slow motion almost like a series of stills would minimize the odds of equipment damage and safety mostly a non - issue.


Well Jean, you could have saved yourself the trouble of all that overanalyzing and simply realized this wasn't my first time at the faire and give us the benefit of the doubt that we're responsible safety-conscious adults. Wink

I tried to convince Greg to stand there and let my chop him a good one on the head, so as to demonstrate the effectivness of the sword and armor but for some reason he wouldn't go for it. Razz
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Quote:
Because the pics shown only show relative positions of sword, shield, armour & potentially vulnerable body parts I was mostly concerned about damage to edges that might happen when swords are in close proximity and at some undefined speed. I did assume that it wouldn't have been anywhere near the speed used with blunts or wasters but the fact that things were done in slow motion almost like a series of stills would minimize the odds of equipment damage and safety mostly a non - issue.


Well Jean, you could have saved yourself the trouble of all that overanalysing and simply realized this wasn't my first time at the faire and give us the benefit of the doubt that we're responsible safety-conscious adults. Wink

I tried to convince Greg to stand there and let my chop him a good one on the head, so as to demonstrate the effectivness of the sword and armor but for some reason he wouldn't go for it. Razz


Yes I was overthinking it. Razz Laughing Out Loud And any suggestion that you guys would be doing something stupid or unsafe was unintentional Blush But still pictures can only tell one so much and I was SO curious ............. Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 12:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Patrick,

I've done a few such school visits and they can be very informative and a lot of fun. I like your Norman kit!

I've only ever brought blunts into schools. I never even considered bringing sharp swords in. I just point out that as we're not trying to kill each other our swords aren't sharp, but historically they were. It's never been an issue. On the others side of the coin I fight full speed with those same blunts.

On the subject of gear looking new, again, I don't think it's an issue. Everything was new once. Some people would have worn bright shiny new stuff and others would have worn old, tatty stuff. Some of my kit looks new because it is, while other items look old and well worn, because they are. This is reality. The one thing I really shy away from is the idea that stuff has to look old because that's how surviving artefacts look. Re-enactment is about when these items were new, not about taking stuff out of a museum case.

Finally, you made the statement, "People with no interest in the subject seem to have forgotten that things like swords are real weapons, not Hollywood props." Given the legislative climate that we live in and the rampant hoplophobia that exists, why would we want to change this attitude? Most people seem content to place swords in the same mental category that they place things like trebuchets, muskets and triremes, things that used to be weapons, but which no one seriously considers to be a weapon nowadays. This attitude helps our community because people don't associate swords with fear and violence, at least not fear and violence today. Convincing people that swords are real weapons today will breed irrational fear and will harm our community. All of the recent legislation to ban swords that has been put forward has been done on the basis of a belief that swords are dangerous weapons that must be taken out of the community.

What are swords made for today? They're made as props for actors, dancers, re-enactors etc, or as sporting/martial arts implements. None of the hundreds of thousands of swords made every year is made to be used as a weapon. Swords used to be weapons. Today they aren't. They ARE Hollywood props (and a bunch of other things too - but not weapons). As long as we make sure that everything we say about the sword as a weapon is said in the past tense "people used to use swords as weapons" "this was used as a weapon in the 15th century" etc. then we are on safe ground. People love talking about death and violence as long as they are at a safe distance from it. Make them think for an instant that swords have anything to do with even the possibility of violence in their safe world and just watch the mental shutters go up. It's an attitude that we as a community can't afford to put out to people.

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
Joined: 01 Jul 2006

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 12:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice job with the display of historical correctness. I would love to get all my stuff up to spec and join you guys. Seems like fun, and I could represent the 15th century. Thats quite a distance to ride though... lol
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

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PostPosted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 6:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand wrote:
I like your Norman kit!


Thank you very much.

Quote:
I've only ever brought blunts into schools. I never even considered bringing sharp swords in. I just point out that as we're not trying to kill each other our swords aren't sharp, but historically they were. It's never been an issue. On the others side of the coin I fight full speed with those same blunts.


Fine, you're welcome to your point of view but it's one I do not share. If any contact sparring were to be done blunts would of course be used. Wooden wasters were present, as can be seen in the photos, and were used for those purposes.


Quote:
On the subject of gear looking new, again, I don't think it's an issue. Everything was new once. Some people would have worn bright shiny new stuff and others would have worn old, tatty stuff. Some of my kit looks new because it is, while other items look old and well worn, because they are. This is reality. The one thing I really shy away from is the idea that stuff has to look old because that's how surviving artefacts look. Re-enactment is about when these items were new, not about taking stuff out of a museum case.

Finally, you made the statement, "People with no interest in the subject seem to have forgotten that things like swords are real weapons, not Hollywood props." Given the legislative climate that we live in and the rampant hoplophobia that exists, why would we want to change this attitude? Most people seem content to place swords in the same mental category that they place things like trebuchets, muskets and triremes, things that used to be weapons, but which no one seriously considers to be a weapon nowadays. This attitude helps our community because people don't associate swords with fear and violence, at least not fear and violence today. Convincing people that swords are real weapons today will breed irrational fear and will harm our community. All of the recent legislation to ban swords that has been put forward has been done on the basis of a belief that swords are dangerous weapons that must be taken out of the community.

What are swords made for today? They're made as props for actors, dancers, re-enactors etc, or as sporting/martial arts implements. None of the hundreds of thousands of swords made every year is made to be used as a weapon. Swords used to be weapons. Today they aren't. They ARE Hollywood props (and a bunch of other things too - but not weapons). As long as we make sure that everything we say about the sword as a weapon is said in the past tense "people used to use swords as weapons" "this was used as a weapon in the 15th century" etc. then we are on safe ground. People love talking about death and violence as long as they are at a safe distance from it. Make them think for an instant that swords have anything to do with even the possibility of violence in their safe world and just watch the mental shutters go up. It's an attitude that we as a community can't afford to put out to people.


I agree. Apparently you've misconstrued my statement to mean that we should try to change that attitude among school administrators. Such is not the case. My point was: it is fairly easy to do programs like this in public schools because administrators don't immediately make the association between swords and weapons. I never said that needed to be changed, I thought that was perfectly clear. However, a sword is indeed a weapon Stephen. An archaic and obsolete one perhaps but still a weapon. I don't think we should dwell on that fact or try to promote their use in the modern world in any way, but, portraying the sword as anything other than a weapon does a disservice to your audience through misinformation, nor does it promote responsibility among that same audience.


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Thu 02 Nov, 2006 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Steve Fabert





Joined: 03 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 7:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick, you have gone above and beyond the call of duty to put that much work into a presentation for teenagers. I am sure it was worth the effort if you kindled a spark of curiosity in even a couple of them about things long ago and far away.

My daughter attends a private religious school whose principal is a great fan of medieval weaponry. The school presents a sword to each of the graduating senior boys to remind them of their moral obligations in life. He and I have discussed the possibility of having their comparatively small graduating class tour my office to get a good close look at my own collection. I doubt that I could take the time or invest the effort to take even a fraction of it to the school.

I am glad that we both live in a part of the country where the fear of litigation does not yet prohibit an event of this kind. If you ever do anything like it again, be sure to pay your homeowners' insurance premium beforehand. If anything ever goes wrong your insurer (or the school district's) might call on me to defend the lawsuit.
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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Reading list: 42 books

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PostPosted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 7:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Fabert wrote:
Patrick, you have gone above and beyond the call of duty to put that much work into a presentation for teenagers. I am sure it was worth the effort if you kindled a spark of curiosity in even a couple of them about things long ago and far away.

My daughter attends a private religious school whose principal is a great fan of medieval weaponry. The school presents a sword to each of the graduating senior boys to remind them of their moral obligations in life. He and I have discussed the possibility of having their comparatively small graduating class tour my office to get a good close look at my own collection. I doubt that I could take the time or invest the effort to take even a fraction of it to the school.

I am glad that we both live in a part of the country where the fear of litigation does not yet prohibit an event of this kind. If you ever do anything like it again, be sure to pay your homeowners' insurance premium beforehand. If anything ever goes wrong your insurer (or the school district's) might call on me to defend the lawsuit.


Thank you Steve.

Quote:
The school presents a sword to each of the graduating senior boys to remind them of their moral obligations in life.


Giving a weapon only to the boys? Wow, talk about incurring liability and discrimination in the same act. Wink

Like you, I work in a profession where vicarious liability and litigation are an ever present fact so I'm well aware of these concerns. Of course there are always those who'll never show me the respect of being an intelligent adult who takes precautions and will feel the need to jump on the "let's be safe!" lecture wagon. To be honest this is one reason why I was hesitant to even start this topic. I see the consequences of irresponsible action on a daily basis, more so than most who participate here, so I don't need lectures. On the other hand, I refuse to live my life in a bubble that I'm afraid to step out of for fear of something bad happening. Our society seems overly willing to collectively castrate itself, all for the illusion of being 'safe'. I personally refuse to subscribe to that lifestyle.

One thing I liked about giving this program in an auditorium venue was the distance maintained from the audience. I did like the 30-40 foot safety envelope the theatre setting provides.

My intention of this thread was to simply share something Greg and I had done and enjoyed doing. Unfortunately we are now digressing into a topic concerned with liabilities, concerns and paranoias, instead of education and history. I have little patience with such things, or the desire to waist any further time on them. Therefore I'll bow out of my own thread and leave the discussion to those with an interest in such things.

Thank you folks for all the kind words concerning the kit and the presentation, it's appreciated.
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Martin Wilkinson





Joined: 05 Mar 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick,

I'm curious as to what made you choose the period in which in kit yourself out in. If that makes any sense, because i'm not sure i see any and i wrote it.

Let me try and simplify the question:

Why that period for your kit, and not a different one?

"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."

Schola Gladiatoria
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Richard Fay




Location: Upstate New York
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 9:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all!

Patrick,
My comment regarding giving your kit a "lived-in" look was a bit of a joke. I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. I understand that medieval warriors would have kept their equipment in meticulous working order (rolling hauberks in a barrel of sand and vinegar, having broken or missing links repaired, oiling and honing swords, having worn or ripped garments repaired or replaced, replacing damaged shields, etc.). You would be crazy to beat up your beautiful helmet!

Greg's kit might benefit from a little wear, since the Knights Hospitaller often handed down equipment from an equipment stockpile, but it shouldn't be overdone. Still, it might benefit from an "older" look.

I understand your viewpoint about wanting to present the most realistic equipment you can. My comment regarding blunts comes from living in a "high tension" area where an interest in medieval arms and armour can be seen as "weird" and "potentially dangerous". (I speak from personal experience, and I currently only collect unsharpened Windlasses!) Not all areas are completely accepting of our hobby. If you run into a school administrator that has a problem with sharp swords, you can always do what you've done in the past and not give the demonstration.

Sorry if you took my post the wrong way! That's the problem with internet communications!

Stay safe!

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Grayson C.




Location: NCF, Sarasota, FL
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: wow....         Reply with quote

Drool Eek!


that looks like one heck of a demonstration!

The highschool I attend has nothing like you to look forward to in our sparse visits to the auditorium, but if they did, I would NOT be one of those falling asleep! You guys were amazing I'm sure and the kids that weren't asleep looked pretty amazed!

Great Job you two, keep it up. Its always fun to see grown men playing dress up (joke!).



on a side note, what swords were you using? I'm not anywhere near familiar with anything other than Windlass (yes, yes, scorn me, I know) so I'm keen to know what swords you were using.

Gratz on a successful show! (wish you were performing at my school Laughing Out Loud )
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Hugo Voisine





Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 7:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think those are the Reeve and the St-Maurice from Albion.
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Michael G. Myers




Location: El Paso, Texas
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I remember being impressed with your ongoing library/community center presentations, Patrick, but seeing a glimpse of the presentation in an auditorium setting really makes me envious of the opportunity these kids enjoyed. You and Greg deserve all the kudos possible for going to the effort.

The group shot was meant to be humorous, but I had to smile noticing that the boys in the photo seem bright-eyed for the most part, while many of the girls obviously have other things on their minds. We didn't see any reaction to your ladies in period dress, but did it really break down into the traditional boys vs girls thing on the question of interest?

Patrick, assuming there was some sort of question and answer period, can you give us the quick gist of any of the kids' questions, comments, or mistaken impressions?

"In the fight between you and the world, back the world." - Kafka

"Neither flesh, nor fowl, nor good red-herring..."
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