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Addison C. de Lisle
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 Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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I like the curved crosspiece on the Earl; I didn't realize that it looked like that from the drawing (this is just an observation, not trying to be critical). Looks great; I hope to be seeing this one at the NY custom knife show  
www.addisondelisle.com
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Paul Watson
Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 395
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | I've seen the grip changes between my very early Regent and some of the later models. Not sure what drove that adjustment, but its noticable when two of them are side by side. |
Joe when I bought mine I had discussion via email with Chad Arnow and he bought up something about the grip change being driven by advice to PJ from some western marital arts people. This email was about a year ago so the exact details are a bit fuzzy but thats the general guts of the point about the reason behind the grip change.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | I like the curved crosspiece on the Earl; I didn't realize that it looked like that from the drawing (this is just an observation, not trying to be critical). |
I think Peter showed it by shading and the detail of the tip of the guard. If you compare his Earl sketch with that for the Munich, a known example of a curved guard, you may see the similarity. Also on that basis, I'm guessing that the Tyrolean, for example, has a curved guard too.
Regards
Geoff
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I see it now; I just didn't look closely enough while scanning through all the pictures. It didn't immediately catch my eye, but now that I've seen it in steel (have we heard this before)... 
www.addisondelisle.com
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | I like the curved crosspiece on the Earl; I didn't realize that it looked like that from the drawing (this is just an observation, not trying to be critical). Looks great; I hope to be seeing this one at the NY custom knife show |
Its (the curve) something that I thought I hated before I got a sword with one. Now that I have a sword with a curved cross, I can't understand why I thought I didn't like them before. 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Wed 01 Nov, 2006 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Haha yeah it's funny how that works; I felt the same way about Viking swords for the longest time 
www.addisondelisle.com
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul Watson wrote: | | Joe Fults wrote: | | I've seen the grip changes between my very early Regent and some of the later models. Not sure what drove that adjustment, but its noticable when two of them are side by side. |
Joe when I bought mine I had discussion via email with Chad Arnow and he bought up something about the grip change being driven by advice to PJ from some western marital arts people. This email was about a year ago so the exact details are a bit fuzzy but thats the general guts of the point about the reason behind the grip change. |
I figured there was a good reason for the change, there generally is. I just didn't know, or I just didn't remember, what that reason was. Thanks for the refresh.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | Yes, I see it now; I just didn't look closely enough while scanning through all the pictures. It didn't immediately catch my eye, but now that I've seen it in steel (have we heard this before)... |
Maybe what, only 499 left? 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject: More about the sword |
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It’s getting cold tonight, which I was not looking forward to, but when I got back from my son's night at wrestling club I snuck out to the very dark, very wet backyard. I then very carefully moved the sword through some guards, cuts, and thrusts.
When I comment on handling, its worth noting that I pretty much suck as a martial anything. Because of this I normally fail miserably when trying to end a cut in a guard or ward (whatever you prefer to call it).
Despite some reservations that I might end up on my rump with something sharp, pointy, and steel moving in the dark on its own, or perhaps because of it, this sword was a joy to handle. The Earl is very easy to move and control (in my opinion). For me at least, it also accelerates quickly. I'm not sure if it is, but it feels faster than my Regent. More to my surprise, the Earl stops where I want it to stop, when I want it to stop, in guard positions; I feel like I have more control with it than with my Regent.
This new pommel is also easy on my hand. For good or for bad, I really like to grip the pommel when I cut. Sometimes the Regent makes me pay for doing that. Probably mostly an issue with my desk jockey hands, but I'm happy to find a solution.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Travis Canaday
Location: Overland Park, Kansas Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I can understand why Peter Johnsson and Albion might be put off by some of the comments made.
I think Peter and Albion have done a great job explaining their future plans and maintaining communication with their customers and forumites. They do more than they need to. They make premier quality swords that really speak for themselves. As their products continue to evolve and improve, why should they have to keep us all updated with every little tweak they make? I would rather have to get a new scabbard, than be given a less superior sword. Even if Joe’s comments were made off hand, while excited, it does come across as a bit insulting.
And about the waiting… who cares. It’s worth it! It reminds me of Patrick Kelly talking about his waiting for the Svante. Albion redesigned the guard on it, which created a longer wait for Patrick. Did he complain... no, he was happy to have the better sword. I think that’s way to see things.
If there was no Albion, one would have to buy a custom sword to get that quality (and it still wouldn’t be guaranteed). We are all lucky that are doing what they do.
Travis
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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People seem to think that wanting to get a product right means it's okay not to deliver it on time. Why shouldn't the consumer expect both? They don't have to be mutually exclusive. When I buy a car, why shouldn't I expect prompt delivery and quality together? What dealership would say "I'll give you the deathtrap today or you can wait six months for the safe car?" No one expects an inferior product, but delivery times are also part of the customer's expectations.
Many people put up with things from sword makers/vendors that they wouldn't put up with from Best Buy, the car dealer, Amazon.com or the pizza delivery man, etc. Bottom line: if a company sets an expectation and misses it, they shouldn't be surprised when people hold them to their word and give them crap for breaking their own deadline. Striving for quality and meeting your own deadlines by being efficient can coexist. When one or both things doesn't happen, no one should be surprised when customers get upset.
Albion should keep customers up to date on tweaks if the tweaks will significantly alter the final product and possibly cause the buyer to end up with something different than what they thought they paid for. Several of Albion's newly introduced models are very different from the concept drawings. If I had ordered one of them based on the drawings, I would have been really upset to get something different, especially after delays.
The waiting's not necessarily worth it if you get something that doesn't meet all your expectations.
Yes, we're lucky that Albion produces good products. However, they're lucky they haven't lost a bunch of customers because of issues like this.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: More about the sword |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | It’s getting cold tonight, which I was not looking forward to, but when I got back from my son's night at wrestling club I snuck out to the very dark, very wet backyard. I then very carefully moved the sword through some guards, cuts, and thrusts.
When I comment on handling, its worth noting that I pretty much suck as a martial anything. Because of this I normally fail miserably when trying to end a cut in a guard or ward (whatever you prefer to call it).
Despite some reservations that I might end up on my rump with something sharp, pointy, and steel moving in the dark on its own, or perhaps because of it, this sword was a joy to handle. The Earl is very easy to move and control (in my opinion). For me at least, it also accelerates quickly. I'm not sure if it is, but it feels faster than my Regent. More to my surprise, the Earl stops where I want it to stop, when I want it to stop, in guard positions; I feel like I have more control with it than with my Regent.
This new pommel is also easy on my hand. For good or for bad, I really like to grip the pommel when I cut. Sometimes the Regent makes me pay for doing that. Probably mostly an issue with my desk jockey hands, but I'm happy to find a solution. |
I'm very excited to try the Earl...I've been waiting for this one since the Atlanta blade show when I heard about its development. I have always loved the Regent, but that pommel, as beautiful as it is, is very rough on the hands. When I handled the Regent at the blade show, the pommel hurt me, so I decided not to buy it and got the Talhoffer instead (which I think is the best sword Albion makes...I absolutely love it). In the end though, I could not resist the Regent and wound up with Partick Kelley's.
I have found the Regent to be a very odd sword...I find it difficult to control and would consider its handling to be poor...when held with bare hands. When handled with gloves, even thin ones, the sword really comes alive and its handling is transformed...it becomes a superb weapon. When you said the Earl is easy to control, it reminded me of the Regent when handled with gloves. It is very precise and an absolute joy to work with. Maybe it's just my hands, but the difference between the Regent with and without gloves is astounding (at least to me).
I remember that at the show, I asked Mike Sigman if he could make me a Regent with a pommel more like the Talhoffer's, and he said "we're already on it...it's called the Earl."
One question...from the photos, it looks like the Earl's handle is beefier than that of the Regent. Is it? How is the sword with bare hands compared to the Regent?
Last edited by Michael Edelson on Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Travis Canaday
Location: Overland Park, Kansas Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | People seem to think that wanting to get a product right means it's okay not to deliver it on time. Why shouldn't the consumer expect both? They don't have to be mutually exclusive. When I buy a car, why shouldn't I expect prompt delivery and quality together? What dealership would say "I'll give you the deathtrap today or you can wait six months for the safe car?" No one expects an inferior product, but delivery times are also part of the customer's expectations.
Many people put up with things from sword makers/vendors that they wouldn't put up with from Best Buy, the car dealer, Amazon.com or the pizza delivery man, etc. Bottom line: if a company sets an expectation and misses it, they shouldn't be surprised when people hold them to their word and give them crap for breaking their own deadline. Striving for quality and meeting your own deadlines by being efficient can coexist. When one or both things doesn't happen, no one should be surprised when customers get upset.
Albion should keep customers up to date on tweaks if the tweaks will significantly alter the final product and possibly cause the buyer to end up with something different than what they thought they paid for. Several of Albion's newly introduced models are very different from the concept drawings. If I had ordered one of them based on the drawings, I would have been really upset to get something different, especially after delays.
The waiting's not necessarily worth it if you get something that doesn't meet all your expectations.
Yes, we're lucky that Albion produces good products. However, they're lucky they haven't lost a bunch of customers because of issues like this. |
I see your point. If people are worried, they should wait to place their order after the sword is available, and not base their decision only on the concept drawing. However, changing details like the shape of the grip, or the subtleties of blade geometry don’t seem significant to disappoint the buyer, unless maybe you had a scabbard that you expected your new sword would fit in.
Sword makers don’t have the resources of Best Buy and car companies. And making a pizza doesn’t take long, nor require much skill to make. It takes longer to train a cutler than it does a pizza maker. If Albion had more people, and Peter had more time, I am sure they would love have all sword available, all the time, right now. That is just not possible. I think it honorable that they strive to put the best product out that they can.
Travis
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Travis Canaday wrote: | | Sword makers don’t have the resources of Best Buy and car companies. And making a pizza doesn’t take long, nor require much skill to make. It takes longer to train a cutler than it does a pizza maker. If Albion had more people, and Peter had more time, I am sure they would love have all sword available, all the time, right now. That is just not possible. I think it honorable that they strive to put the best product out that they can. |
Well said! I can't imagine anybody would disagree with that. I've not heard anyone disagree or say anything counter to that. If we assume we're all in agreement, then the players themselves surely know the difficulties imposed by business and need to ensure that customer expectations are managed properly. This is a cornerstone of good business. Luckily, this stuff is pretty straightforward when it's given a level of attention commensurate with its importance.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Travis Canaday wrote: | | Sword makers don’t have the resources of Best Buy and car companies. And making a pizza doesn’t take long, nor require much skill to make. It takes longer to train a cutler than it does a pizza maker. If Albion had more people, and Peter had more time, I am sure they would love have all sword available, all the time, right now. That is just not possible. I think it honorable that they strive to put the best product out that they can. |
Well said! I can't imagine anybody would disagree with that. I've not heard anyone disagree or say anything counter to that. If we assume we're all in agreement, then the players themselves surely know the difficulties imposed by business and need to ensure that customer expectations are managed properly. This is a cornerstone of good business. Luckily, this stuff is pretty straightforward when it's given a level of attention commensurate with its importance. |
It might be a good idea ( or not ?) to have a topic about expectations about customer service: What makes for exceptional service and how much slack we should give any maker when it come to respecting delivery times and quality control.
A very general kind of topic " avoiding " specific companies and not turning it into a bitch fest !
Obviously getting the product to a client at the price, time and quality promised is the ideal.
Delays I can live with if the supplier is proactive keeping me informed about the status of the order and I'll accept delays that are reasonable in length and delays that don't get extended too many times: This depends on many things. With companies that have given good service in the past I will give them a lot more slack without worrying about my eventual satisfaction with the product or if I will even eventually get it.
I really don't like getting angry at a supplier and if I'm put into the position of feeling angry the thing I resent the most is being put into the position of having to be angry: A lot of this can be avoided by good and honest communication from the supplier(s). If it gets to the point of suspecting that I am being told what I want to hear instead of the truth just to get rid of
me I will persevere until I get my product or have to give up on it, but I won't be a repeat customer and I would at least tell my friends about it ! ( i.e. a lot of negative marketing / word of mouth would happen, at least as private communications ! )
So, there is:
1) Great service.
2) Reasonable service: Small delays with good communication.
3) Adequate service: Late delivery with acceptable reasons that are credible.
4) Lousy service were you have to keep bugging the maker with poor return communication and barely credible excuses.
5) Service so bad that it could almost be called " fraud " or a total lack of professionalism, time management, honesty.
Anyway, rant over, and I've been lucky so far that most of my experiences have been 1) or 2) and so far no worse than 3) and NO 4) or 5)
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| Travis Canaday wrote: | Personally, I can understand why Peter Johnsson and Albion might be put off by some of the comments made.
I think Peter and Albion have done a great job explaining their future plans and maintaining communication with their customers and forumites. They do more than they need to. They make premier quality swords that really speak for themselves. As their products continue to evolve and improve, why should they have to keep us all updated with every little tweak they make? I would rather have to get a new scabbard, than be given a less superior sword. Even if Joe’s comments were made off hand, while excited, it does come across as a bit insulting.
And about the waiting… who cares. It’s worth it! It reminds me of Patrick Kelly talking about his waiting for the Svante. Albion redesigned the guard on it, which created a longer wait for Patrick. Did he complain... no, he was happy to have the better sword. I think that’s way to see things.
If there was no Albion, one would have to buy a custom sword to get that quality (and it still wouldn’t be guaranteed). We are all lucky that are doing what they do. |
Travis,
Fair enough.
Albion makes an excellent product and there was a time when I could imagine making a post much like your post. That said, I've come to realize there is nothing that Albion is doing that a determined competitor cannot copy, if said competitor wants to put the time and money into doing it.
Quality, like price, is a slippery advantage to hold onto.
The major competetive differentiator that Albion has that cannot be copied by somebody else, is their relationship with their customers. Albion (not just Peter) built many of those relationships by having very open, and sometimes very hard, conversations with people who were buying and using their products on this forum. If Albion wants to keep that advantage and maintain those relationships, they are going to have to deal with some bumps in the dialog, and they are going to have to realize that there is more to valuable feedback than "you make great stuff" although that is important to.
Even though they do make great stuff, as I've repeatedly said in this thread.
Best regards,
Joe
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Thu 02 Nov, 2006 3:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: Re: More about the sword |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | One question...from the photos, it looks like the Earl's handle is beefier than that of the Regent. Is it? How is the sword with bare hands compared to the Regent? |
Mike,
I'm not sure if the handle is beefier or not. It seems to be more or less the same when I'm using it. Although I'm almost blinded by the sheer joy of the pommel. As for bare handles compared to the Regent, in my opinion there is no comparison. Handling the Earl has been a pure joy. On one hand I'm reluctant to gush that I think this is the best sword I've ever handled, on the other hand, I think it might be the best sword I've ever handled.
If I have time today or tomorrow, I'll try to do some camparisons with and without gloves.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Jean,
The real interesting thing to me about this whole thread, is that I didn't really think I was bitching, and after rereading the thread several times, I still don't think I was bitching (perhaps I could have put more effort into ego boosting). Its just amazing to me that Albion seems to have significantly improved their product, not made any noise about the fact that they had a new and improved product, and then become upset because I said they should market their product upgrades.
Its not the end of the world that no fuss was made over it. I understand people being so busy they overlooked it. All I'm trying to say is next time, somebody in the organization should shout it from the mountain top because it might generate a few more sales.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Travis Canaday wrote: |
Sword makers don’t have the resources of Best Buy and car companies. And making a pizza doesn’t take long, nor require much skill to make. It takes longer to train a cutler than it does a pizza maker. If Albion had more people, and Peter had more time, I am sure they would love have all sword available, all the time, right now. That is just not possible. I think it honorable that they strive to put the best product out that they can. |
It is indeed honorable that they put out the "best product they can." No one expects them to cut corners or do any less. No one. Albion, though, has a history of missing deadlines. Every sword I've bought from them (5) has taken longer than the website-advertised delivery times. Four of them have been later than what Mike told me at the time of order. It takes more than quality products to keep customers happy. As Nathan said,
| Quote: | | the players themselves surely know the difficulties imposed by business and need to ensure that customer expectations are managed properly. This is a cornerstone of good business. |
Albion is pretty darn good at managing a customer's expectation for quality. Now they need to work on the timeliness part and other aspects. They need to make sure all a customer's expectations are met.
What Pizza Hut, Best Buy, and Albion have in common is a customer base who wants quality and delivery within advertised parameters. Every business has that in common, large or small. Skill levels required of workers, resources, etc. aren't relevant to me. I expect the company to do what it takes to fulfill their obligations: they should be able to do what they told me they would. If they lack resources or if good people are hard to train or something else, then the company needs to honestly evaluate that and adjust delivery times to match. It's the company's job to ensure that expectations are met for quality, timeliness and anything else that's applicable.
Why is it wrong to expect a company to live up to *all* its promises?
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 02 Nov, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Why is it wrong to expect a company to live up to *all* its promises? |
The whole point is not to reduce the turn around time but to be " accurate " in the first place about realistic delivery dates.
If one is careful to only promise what one can deliver expectations are met.
Nobody FORCES a vendor to give short estimates and if it cause problems, longer but accurate wait times end up making everyone happy and enhances one's reputation even when the actual delivery times are the same.
If one is at a restaurant and the plates are HUGE but when your steak finally arrives " cold " and it looks tiny and lost on the HUGE plate ...........
The same steak on a normal sized plate arriving on time and hot will be perceived differently.
( Again: My comments are not aimed at any specific vendor and are meant to be useful. )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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