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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Thu 20 Mar, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote: | Doesn't life usually throw "less than ideal" situations at us from time to time?
I believe that righteous men have nothing to fear or be embarrased about if given a truly taxing set of circumstances, especially when putting considerable efforts towards resolving them. Good workmanship and experience will most always prevail...
Please remember this: The fact that Ollin, or Jean, are not giving up says volumes towards a positive outcome. That, and it's probably going to be one kick-@ss sword when it's done  . Maybe it will even have some sort of density, oops I mean destiny... (feeble attempt at humor) |
It will certainly be special as it will have used up a lot of possible bad luck and the final sword will have the souls of it's
" brothers " as well as it's own. ( Well, good karma for the sword I think !? If, we want to get superstitious about it ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mark G.
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well, we are officially in a state of making progress again! That's a reflief, to say the least. The blade came back from heat treat late last week and things are looking pretty good.
We've (Jean and I) have changed design of the grind on the blade a little bit, particularly in the tip region. The bevels now extend all of the way to the point. I have no doubt that the original design of the bevels fading out into a lenticular tip section would have turned out nicely, but I think this blade benefits a bit from not having the excess material at the end.
The pommel has also changed from the pictures before. The profile hasn't altered any, but I was finally able to shape it to be more fitting to this blade, in terms of dimensions and weight.
So, here's how things are looking now, or at least as of yesterday....
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www.ollinsworddesign.com
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Man, I really love the flairing guard, it looks like you could put an eye out with it. The project is looking very sweet; milkjugs everywhere are beginning to panic.
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Tim Lison
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| Posted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! Jean, you are gonna have one heck of a sword! I'm excited to see this one so close to done!
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Looking very nice Mark and Jean,
I love the pommel and the long deep fuller. I love deep fullers. . .
Jeremy
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the compliments and I'm very pleased with the look of it.
In discussions we mutually decided that the purity of the lines are so nice that any engraving would be TOO decorative and take attention away from the complex grind lines, so I decided to leave the surfaces clean.
The guard may have a little of bevelling around the edges.
Oh, for those who haven't read this Topic thread before you might look at the first few pages and in some subsequent pages at other pics of the sword ( the 3 previous blade attempts ) and at my concept drawing in Photoshop: The sword has evolved and the design has changed gradually during the process. In some ways it will end up a better design because all sorts of problems gave me time to evolve and change the concept.
The original design was based on the Pontirolo sword as a starting point but modified: In time the length of the sword was reduced from 40" blade to 36" and the point bevel design was changed to first shorten the elliptical section and to finally have the bevels go right to the point. The point should still be reinforced by having a triangular flat between the main bevels.
To not completely abandon the ideas I had about the engraving, the Wolf and initials pattern iconography may be used on the scabbard: Details of that still in concept stage.
I also want to thank Nathan Robinson for his opinion ( personal e-mail where I asked his opinion ) confirming that the sword would look better without engraving.
One last thing as a teaser: If you look at the last pics and review the original concept and progress drawings where would you guess is the POB at this stage ? You will probably not believe the actual number.
By the way I'm not imposing on Mark a specific target number about POB: I told him to let the sword " talk " to him and for him to " feel " the handling when tweaking it. Mark mentioned that he is very happy about this because it lets him free to use his experience to make the sword true to it's character as opposed to try forcing it into being something it isn't !
One reason for this is, I think, that when one initially draws the outline and taper of a sword and them decides on the bevels and distal taper the final POB is sort of pre-ordained and pommel and guard masses can only do so much to change it's nature. One can try to force it into being something else at a late stage of design, but that is not the way to get the best results.
Finally, a big thanks to Mark for being stubborn enough to get to blade #4. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with your decision about the engraving Jean- but then again I dislike most engraving,
Some slight beveling of the cross would be nice.
Jeremy
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | One last thing as a teaser: If you look at the last pics and review the original concept and progress drawings where would you guess is the POB at this stage ? You will probably not believe the actual number. |
Cool, I like guessing 
Based on the visual appearance and if the blade is indeed 36in, my gut feeling is that the CoG of the whole thing ends up at around 5in from the base of the blade. Can't really justify it, it's how I feel, I spotted it on the picture and measured  Seems way less than expected, with all the hollow grinding and the big pommel...
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Paul Watson
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| Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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My guess is that with the size of the pommel, a stout tang, the thick guard, what appears to be hollow grinding on the latest photos and the tapering blade profile, the POB is 3.5 inches from the base of the blade.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul Watson wrote: | | My guess is that with the size of the pommel, a stout tang, the thick guard, what appears to be hollow grinding on the latest photos and the tapering blade profile, the POB is 3.5 inches from the base of the blade. |
At this point, and it might change a bit: BINGO, yes 3.5 inches ........ good guess.
I actually think that this is a good thing since the sword is still around 5.5 pounds, so with a POB of 3.5 it should be a lot more
" friendly " in handling than if the POB was 9" at the same weight.
I think it might loose .5 pounds.
To keep things in perspective my AT 1435 at a POB of about 5" and weight of about 4 pounds: I feel comfortable using it one handed although it's really much more of a two hander.
Being able to do a concentration curl with a 50 pound dumbbell sort of helps.  ( probably mentioned this once or twice or thrice before in this very long number of pages Topic ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Paul Watson
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| Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Jean Thibodeau"] | Paul Watson wrote: | | My guess is that with the size of the pommel, a stout tang, the thick guard, what appears to be hollow grinding on the latest photos and the tapering blade profile, the POB is 3.5 inches from the base of the blade. |
At this point, and it might change a bit: BINGO, yes 3.5 inches ........ good guess.
quote]
Actually it was more than a guess. I took all the images and manipulated them to be the same scale. I assumed all the components were of the same material, therefore weight became irrelevant as it was constant and it was the POB we were after. Once I had worked out the relative dimensions and volume of the main components the only other variables were the blades distal taper and the extent of the hollow grinding. These were worked out by visually measuring the difference is shadow density and light reflection on the blade and then from these rates of decline and increase respectively I could work out the reduction of the blades thickness. The basis for the thickness was taken from the base of the blade as seen in the side image of the hilt (while allowing to calculate the diminished perspective of that view buy measuring the difference in the guards thickness in relation to it's overall width). Allow for tolerances in my ability to accurately measure the images I came of with the POB being anywhere between 3.42 and 3.58 inches. I simply averaged it out to 3.5 inches which was the published result.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think you have way too much time on your hands
5 pounds, jeez that thing is going to be a monster...
www.addisondelisle.com
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Paul Watson
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| Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | I think you have way too much time on your hands
5 pounds, jeez that thing is going to be a monster... |
I worked it out in less than half an hour with nothing but a scanner, ruler and calculator just to se if I could. Quite pleased with the result actually. 
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul Watson wrote: | | Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | I think you have way too much time on your hands
5 pounds, jeez that thing is going to be a monster... |
I worked it out in less than half an hour with nothing but a scanner, ruler and calculator just to se if I could. Quite pleased with the result actually. |
Lets call it " NOT A GUESS " then but really good accurate estimating from the available information: Impressive. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Paul Watson
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| Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Or an April fools joke.........
Based on your comments I guessed it would be a POB closer to the guard than usuall, a POB that would liven up the handling of such an massively proportioned sword.
I also based the guess on the fact that a professional and knowledgable swordsmith was not likely to make a sword such as yours with the POB much closer than 3.5 inches to the guard as it would be counter productive to it's type.
I know there are swords with closer POB's, the Svante comes to mind, and some modern LPM swords but they are totally different swords to yours.
Combine these with my original genuine visual assesment as per my first post, I was dithering between 3.5 to 4 inches and decided to commit to the lesser figure, once again based on your reaction as there are plenty of swords out there with 4 inch POB's or there abouts.
I hope this wasn't to bad a joke but when I guessed exactly right, the opportunity just kind of presented itself.
Being onto blade 4 I guess the level of satisfaction you get when this sword is finished is going to be as huge as the sword itself.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul Watson wrote: | Or an April fools joke.........
Based on your comments I guessed it would be a POB closer to the guard than usual, a POB that would liven up the handling of such an massively proportioned sword.
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Good April Fools joke. But in a way your real way to " guess " at the POB was as impressive and clever as the phoney " technobabble " explanation and based on a good reading of my words ( said too much for the POB to be the obvious long one I guess ? ) and also on a good visual evaluation of masses and the logical assumptions of what a good swordmaker would do.
Boy, did that first explanation sound plausible. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Wed 02 Apr, 2008 2:45 am Post subject: |
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When the sword is finished it will be interesting to know how you feel about its handling, and contrast it with the dynamic properties that can be measured. I'd be especially curious about where pivot points will end up on this one, and what feel you'll get from them.
I have some ideas but I never got to try them on such an extreme example in terms of weight...
Any idea of where the 0.5lb would be lost, Jean? On the blade?
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 02 Apr, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | When the sword is finished it will be interesting to know how you feel about its handling, and contrast it with the dynamic properties that can be measured. I'd be especially curious about where pivot points will end up on this one, and what feel you'll get from them.
I have some ideas but I never got to try them on such an extreme example in terms of weight...
Any idea of where the 0.5lb would be lost, Jean? On the blade? |
A little in finishing the blade maybe, a bit more from the guard that is still a little " chunky " and should be thinned a little without changing the profile. The contour of the guard is also going to be chamfered between 1/16" to 1/8" around the whole contour. The pommel will also lose a bit in finishing ( visually very little maybe, but it all adds up ).
As far as handling is concerned I think it is going to be great in proportion to it's mass but it's mass may be too much: But that is the gamble I took from the start. I'm guessing that I will find the handling to be O.K. but more quickly tiring than a lighter sword.
I'll have to ask Mark about the pivot points and where he think they are or will be when it is finished and find out how one establishes their position ?
I could be wrong about how to do this but here is what I think it is done: If I hold a sword vertically and move the handle of the sword laterally in a rapid fashion from side to side there is a point around which a blade seems to rotate and doesn't move. I've tried this with one of my swords the other night and maybe I should try it with all of them to see what happens.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Wed 02 Apr, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | I could be wrong about how to do this but here is what I think it is done: If I hold a sword vertically and move the handle of the sword laterally in a rapid fashion from side to side there is a point around which a blade seems to rotate and doesn't move. I've tried this with one of my swords the other night and maybe I should try it with all of them to see what happens. |
Yep it's exactly the right way. The point you hold the sword at is important and changes the result; I normally do that holding the sword blade down between thumb and index to have the most punctual action possible. It seems the pivot point associated to the cross is most significant in the control of the blade, and the one associated to the pommel for the behaviour in cutting motions (before impact).
I'm not sure you should bother Mark with that as very few smiths are comfortable working with that, and our comprehension is not so good anyway that it can be used to design a very special sword like this one. Mark has probably his own personal way to find the right balance, and plenty of other things to worry about for now
But I do encourage you to play with that, from a user perspective it brings a lot. Try it with various holding point on the hilt, for example at the pommel, then at the cross... It can give you an idea of what is coupled to each hand, for instance. Try it with other pieces as I believe you have some impact weapons, you'll see how different the behaviours can be.
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 02 Apr, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: |
I'm not sure you should bother Mark with that as very few smiths are comfortable working with that, and our comprehension is not so good anyway that it can be used to design a very special sword like this one. Mark has probably his own personal way to find the right balance, and plenty of other things to worry about for now
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Oh, I wouldn't bother Mark before the fact, I might ask him were he think the pivot points are after he finishes the sword, but I think I can find them myself now with the confirmation that I'm doing the right thing.
Although, I didn't know about trying it while holding the pommel instead of close to the guard: So, that why it's pivot points and not just the pivots point. 
I may have read about them in earlier Topic posts but I think I really didn't understand the concept at the time: Very clear and concise explanation, thanks.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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