[Justin Pasternak]

I was just curious if mounted knights used bows and or crossbows instead of the usual mace, lance, war hammer, etc.

[George Hill]

[Max von Bargen]

The use of mounted missile troops was recorded in several instances, but these were certainly not knights. Most mounted archers/crossbowmen rode to the battlefield and then dismounted to fight. The main exception to this is the use of horse archers ("Turcopoles") who were employed by the Crusaders. The only incident in which knights used missile weapons that I can recall of is in some accounts of the battle of Bannockburn in 1314 where frustrated English knights threw maces, axes, and other such weapons at the Scottish schiltrons. This may have occurred at other times, but I don't think a knight would abandon his sword, shield, axe, lance, etc. for a missile weapon. If knights did use missile weapons, they would have been secondary weapons. I would believe that some knights, especially in the earlier middle ages, might have used javelins as George said, but again, these would have been secondary weapons.

Of course, this only applies to Western European knights. Byzantine and Muslim armies had significantly larger proportions of mounted missile troops.

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

Here's a thread right up my alley!
The medieval European knight is defined as a mounted noble warrior who fought with lance and sword. They would charge at the enemy, knee-to-knee, in a formation known as a conroi. (There is a nice picture of a conroi training in the Osprey book Knight of Outremer by David Nicolle.) Even in the 14th century, when knights often dismounted to fight (especially the English), they typically used sword, axe, mace, or even a cut-down lance. The French supposedly broke the ends off the shafts of their lances prior to the Battle of Agincourt, the better to use them on foot.

A knight would be expected to be proficient with a wide variety of weapons, including either a bow or a crossbow. However, he typically used missile weapons in the hunt, not on the battlefield. There could be exceptions to the rule; David Miller in his book Richard the Lionheart: the Mighty Crusader, states that Richard wielded a sword in one hand and an arbalest (crossbow) in the other when he leapt over the side of his royal galley to wade ashore at Jaffa. However, I find this improbable, but Richard was known for advocating the use of the crossbow. The crossbow was so hated by the elite in Europe that the church tried to ban its use!

Other cultures did indeed have a tradition of mounted archery. The Japanese Samurai was expected to be able to fire his very long bow proficiently from horseback. The Mongols and the Turks made great use of mounted archery tactics, using a recurved composite bow. However, in medieval Europe, it tended to be the commoners or mercenaries that used bows and crossbows. The crossbowmen shown in the Talhoffer illustration are either unarmoured or lightly armoured, so they might not be knights.

If you wish to study the medieval knight, here are a few books that could get your research started. Some may be out-of-print, but might be found in the bookstore on this site (through amazon dot com, I think):

Andrea Hopkins Knights A nice general overview of the social history of knights, including the chivalric ethos. The book includes many illustrations from manuscripts, as well as a few colour reproductions of knights in armour.

Frances Gies The Knight in History Covers the history of the knight by concentrating on various famous knights in different medieval periods.

David Edge and John Miles Paddock Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight If you can find this book, get it! It's a good book to start an arms and armour library, with lots of information and nice pictures.

Stephen Turnbull The Book of the Medieval Knight (reprinted as The Knight Triumphant, or something to that effect) A nice book covering the later medieval period in England, from Edward III to the Wars of the Roses.

Many of the Osprey Publishing books are decent, especially the "Warrior" series.

And finally, any of the knight series by Ewart Oakeshott, especially A Knight and His Weapons, A Knight and His Armour, and A Knight in Battle.

I hope this all helped!
Stay safe!

[Kel Rekuta]

George,

Talhofffer's plates of the crossbow versus lance plates are probably a self defense against ambush concept he was eager to impress upon a prospective client. Not really a battlefield tactic, I think.

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!
I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but since the weight of armour was mentioned, I thought I would throw out some actual numbers. These all came from the appendix in Claude Blair's European Armour: Circa 1066 to Circa 1700.

Field armour, Italian, c. 1450: 57 lbs.
Field armour, German, c. 1525: 41 lbs. 13.5 oz.
Field armour, Italian, c. 1550-60: 45 lbs. 13.5 oz.
Field armour, Greenwich, c. 1590: 71 lbs. 14 oz.
Cuirassier armour, Augsburg, c. 1620-30: 69 lbs. 5 oz.
Armour for the joust, Augsburg, c. 1500: 90 lbs. 1.5 oz.
(The later field armour and cuirasser armour were probably "pistol proof", with heavier breastplates than earlier harness. Also, armour for the joust was often much heavier than that for the field.)

Haubergeon, probably Italian, 14th. century: 31 lbs.
Haubergeon, German, 15th. century: 20 lbs. 11 oz.
Brigandine, probably German, early 16th. century: 19lbs. 9 oz.

Hope this isn't too far off the topic, but since armour weights were mentioned, I thought I would post these in case anyone was interested.
Hope this helps!
Stay safe!

[Richard Fay]

Hello again!
I forgot to mention that William Rufus, son of William the Conqueror, died from an arrow wound while hunting in the New Forest. Walter Tyrel, a Norman nobleman who was one of the king's favorite hunting companions, missed the deer he was aiming at and accidently (?) struck William Rufus in the chest! So, yes, knights used bows and crossbows for hunting, but it's doubtful that they would use them in war.
Stay safe!

[Dan Howard]

Germany has had a lnog tradition of mounted crossbowmen. IIRC there is a woodcut of Maximillian himself on horseback with a crossbow. He is armoured, suggesting that the illustration might have a military context and not a hunting one. A woodcut by Jost Amman also shows a mounted crossbowman. Tallhoffer has an illustration of a mounted crossdbowman. So does the Manesse Codex. There is no doubt that crossbows were used by German knights.

FWIW a lot of the weights Blair mentioned in his book have turned out to be wrong. I can't remember whether actual weights are higher or lower than those listed.

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

Dan Howard wrote:

[Max von Bargen]

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!
I have found one image from the early 14th century Manessa Codex depicting mounted crossbowmen, but I'm not sure that the soldiers depicted in this particular illustration are of knightly rank (although I'm not saying there aren't others out there that do show knights using crossbows).
It's the scene showing the cattle raid, with the lead horseman holding a chicken. Two of the three mounted soldiers on the left do carry crossbows, but it's not clear if they would actually use them from horseback. It is clear that they are fairly lightly armoured, with early open-faced bascinets or cervellieres, half or three-quarter sleeves on their hauberks, and no leg armour (a very important observation, by the way). Based on their equipment, they might be more properly termed "mercenaries" or "mounted arbalesters" rather than knights. The lack of leg armour also seems to indicate that they would fight on foot, not mounted, although it's hard to say for sure.
Does anyone have any images from the Manessa Codex that they could post that clearly show knights (crested helms, heraldic surcoats, full hauberks, and mail chausses) firing crossbows from horseback, or otherwise using crossbows? I'm not saying they don't exist, I would just like to see!
Of course, you have to be careful using images from medieval manuscripts. They often portrayed all the soldiers as knights, which would clearly not be the case on the typical medieval battlefield.
(I think there is a German siege scene or two depicting a soldier in knightly armour firing a crossbow, but sieges are different than open battles.)
Again, let me say that it is possible that German knights used crossbows occasionally, they certainly had a reputation for fighting on foot, but I wonder how common it truly was. Typically, the medieval knight was seen as a mounted armoured warrior that fought with lance and sword. (After all, the German for knight, "ritter", means "rider"!)
Thanks for any images!
Any help will be greatly appreciated!
Stay safe!

[George Hill]

[Dan Howard]

There is a long tradition of using javelins from moving platforms. It was practiced from chariots in Mykenaian Greece and later by British Celts if Caesar is to be believed. Medieval Spanish light cavalry made great use of javelins from horseback. It was also practiced by several cultures further East

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

From France, there are some 13th- and 14th-century images of fully armored men shooting composite bows from horseback.

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

I've found some images of mounted warriors, or warriors clad in knightly garb, using or carrying bows or crossbows. It is hard to conclude definitely that all of the figures are indeed of knightly rank; they could be mounted arbalesters or mercenaries. Also, some could be hunting scenes. Still other depict sieges, not open battles.

Some of the figures from the Manessa Codex might be mercenaries or mounted arbalesters, not men of knightly rank. They are clad in lighter armour than the more "traditionally" clad knights in that manuscript. (The Manessa Codex depicts many, many scenes of knights in their more traditional role as "mounted shock troops", fighting with lance and sword. Most of these knights are clad in full hauberks and crested great helms.) Also, the scenes might not be depicting battles. Knights did use missile weapons for hunting!

The detail from the Romance of Alexander in the Bodleian Library, Oxford, shows a hunting scene. The knights are in full armour, probably to indicate that they are knights, but they are hunting wild men in a river. Here one fires his bow against their hairy prey.

The other scene from the British Library depicts the siege of Corinth, but the armoured men might not actually be knights. It might be the case of the illuminator depicting all or most soldiers as knights. Or, it could also be the case, if it's depicting an ancient siege, of the illustrator trying to depict ancient tactics using medieval concepts. Would an archer, even a knightly archer, fire a bow wearing a great helm?

Again, I'm not saying that knights didn't use crossbows or bows. It was possible, but probably not common, for knights to have used missile weapons in warfare. I am saying care must be taken in interpreting the manuscript images. Some may be men of other than knightly rank. Others may be hunting scenes. And, still others may be "artistic convention".

Enjoy!

[Richard Fay]

Hello again!
I found a few more images of soldiers in "knightly armour" using crossbows, but I have no means to scan these particular images and post them. If anyone has has these, could they post them so others know what I'm referring to?

First, I found a photo of a sculpture from the Church of St. Nicholas in Hagenau, eastern France. It's in David Nicolle's Osprey book Campaign: Crecy 1346: Triumph of the Longbow. It can also be found in Paul Martin's Arms and Armour (along with another sculpture from the same church). Nicolle seems to believe the sculpture is supposed to represent a mercenary or armoured infantryman. I believe he's right, since the Marin book states that the sculptures are from a scene depicting the sleeping guards at the Holy Sepulchre. I think they are meant to be "common" soldiers, not noble warriors of "knightly" rank. It may be another instance of "artistic convention", or some of the better paid mercenaries wore complete armour. Still, it does show a fully armoured warrior with a crossbow.

I found another image, in a colour plate in the Martin book. This is a siege scene from Rudolph von Ems's World Chronicle, late 13th century. A soldier clad in knightly armour, complete with great helm, climbs a scaling ladder while wielding a crossbow. This may be a case of a knight using a crossbow in a siege (different from open battle), or it could be a case of medieval "artistic convention".

Finally, I found another siege scene in David Nicolle's Man at Arms 231: French Medieval Armies 100-1300. It's from an early 14th century French manuscript (Ms. 9245, f. 254r), now in the Bibliotheque (sp.?) Royale, Brussels. It Shows two soldiers clad in knightly gear, the one on the far left in a scale cuirass, firing crossbows up at a castle. I'm not sure if they are truly supposed to represent knights, however; there are mounted knights more typically armed with lance and sword on the right-hand side of the illustration. I also don't know what the illustrations is actually supposed to represent; if it's a biblical or Crusading scene, the armoured crossbowmen may be the artist's poor attempt at depicting "Saracens" or ancient warriors. But this is a siege scene, so knights may have used crossbows in this particular instance.

I think the problem with a lot of these images is that they are open to various interpretations. The real social position of the subjects may be ambiguous. Still, they can be used to argue that knights used crossbows and bows. Who can say for sure?

Again, if anyone can post any of these images for others to view, it would be greatly appreciated!

Stay safe!

[Max von Bargen]

[George Hill]

[Joe Fults]

[Richard Fay]