Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Movie fights... Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Patrick Murphy





Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"...all feature extremely quick and lethal fights, mostly ending within a stroke or two" can't figure out how to make it quote right!

I'll defend that statement! In Iado, we're taught that if you can't get to them in two strokes, you just start over! Wink

"In an honest service there is thin commons, low wages, and hard labour; in this, plenty and satiety, pleasure and ease, liberty and power. No, a merry life and a short one shall be my motto."
Bartholomew Roberts 1721
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jean Henri Chandler




Location: New Orleans
Joined: 20 Nov 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,420

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

anybody know anything about the Gates of Fire movie?
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum

Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
View user's profile Send private message
Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
anybody know anything about the Gates of Fire movie?


I didn't know there was one! Question

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 28 Feb 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,248

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 4:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think more reasonable fight scenes would improve the quality of the action. This is especially true for movies that strive to be gritty and realistic. The Proposition, I believe, is a great example how to do violence on the screen. The movie wouldn't have worked nearly as well if it'd used Hollywood conventions, especially those about injury and death.
View user's profile Send private message
R D Moore




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages
Reading list: 11 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 425

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 9:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Genuine fighting would probably be too fast for the eye to follow and too short to stretch out into an exiting scene !


When masters oppose each other one sees a lot of move and counter move changing guards and reacting to changing guards with little real action happening until one or the other takes advantage of a perceived error: The fight then ends with a lighting fast strike or counter strike with one or both fighters wounded or dead. The previous I think being true with real duels as well as well an authentic film fights.

But still there is a place for long stage fights in movies for the sake of entertainment and not as education about real techniques.


Jean, once again I believe you have nailed it on the head. I think those viewers who do not follow sparing as we do would walk away feeling somewhat unentertained. Man! The whole right side of my body tensed for the strike just reading about the sheild being thrown back!

"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,698

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 7:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While we're at it, I remember that I wrote a journal entry in June about the topic of stage fighting:

http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/313664.html

I'd certainly be glad to hear if any of the people here could offer comments and/or corrections for the thing. Wink
View user's profile Send private message
Michael B.
Industry Professional



Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: 18 Oct 2007

Posts: 367

PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 5:55 pm    Post subject: Movie Fighting         Reply with quote

I am a full time professional filmmaker with credits ranging from major feature films to reality TV.
I am currently slated to direct a feature film entitled "The Legacy" which will feature swordplay. One of the actors just finished training under Paul Wagner, all the actors fighting in the movie are being required to study historical swordwork and fighting styles. The fighting in the film will be as real as we can make it. We believe that we can have real blade work and fighitng styles and still make it breathtaking, entertaining and exciting. Look for a DVD release early 2009. An online documentry may be starting soon. I'll keep everyone posted.

www.facebook.com/bearmountainforge2
Michael Bergstrom
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
R D Moore




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages
Reading list: 11 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 425

PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 6:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael B

Thank you! I'll be watching for your posts and patiently awaiting the DVD.

"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You know 300 had real fighting in it; it was based off Pilipino and Indian martial arts.

The guy who did LotRs had historical fighting thrown in there and it looked great. Kingdom of Heaven had some good sword fighting too; even mentioned Fiore moves though he comes a few hundred years after the movie takes place Wink

James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Thu 13 Dec, 2007 7:34 pm    Post subject: Movie Fights...         Reply with quote

Does anybody remember the film Braveheart?
Well, it's one of my favourite movies starring Mel Gibson as William Wallace. The movie, however, looks a bit peculiar to many as the Scottish freedom fighter's character is played by an American actor. Furthermore, Gibson even hired dialect coaches to train him to speak English in a Scottish accent for Wallace's role. It's quite compelling to see Wallace being tortured before being executed in the final parts of the film.
View user's profile Send private message
Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 450

PostPosted: Thu 13 Dec, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With what Gibson did to history in that film he deserved all the torture he got.
Bon coeur et bon bras
View user's profile Send private message
Gavin Kisebach




Location: Lacey, Wa US
Joined: 01 Aug 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 650

PostPosted: Thu 13 Dec, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Methinks that many practical fighting techniques are so swift and subtle that only the smallest percentage of the audience would realize what just they had just seen. 90% of the audience would lead over to ther person next to them and whisper "what just happened? did he just get killed? I missed it..."

Compound this with the duality that humans are sometimes amazingly hard to kill, and sometimes die frighteningly easily, and depicting either one can look phony.

And as Patrick mentioned, fights in movies and theater are often more of a plot device than a forensic excersise. Drama sells. A hero who is supposed to be struggling mightily has to look like he's struggling mightily. Even better if he strugges mightily for five to ten minutes.

So even if a director consults an expert (there's that tricky word) he has to balance other considerations than mere reality. The attraction many feel for cinema is exactly that it provides an escape from the bonds of reality.

All that said, I hate movie fights. They are rarely anything but preposterous. Laughing Out Loud
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 620

PostPosted: Fri 14 Dec, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Akira Kurosawa managed to make good swordfights with much less un-authenitisity than Hollywood. And the Film industry make some good shootout scenes and a bullet is always faster than a blade;)
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Andreas Auer




Location: Innsbruck, Tirol, Austria, Europe
Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 11 books

Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri 14 Dec, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

my biggest problem with swordfights in films nowadays is the speed of the cameracuts....these fights look as they are not even fighting, but just posing in front of a camera to get a tenth of a second shot to put together a puzzle. i dont know if its a money issue (learning an actor swordfighting might take a bit of money) or the lack of motivation from an actor to learn fighting, or the need to speed up these scenes by that much. i havent seen a good long fighting scene for a long time...i think it was in the 80s.
in my group we do mainly freestyle one on one fighting, but once or twice in the year we put together a choreographed showfight to earn a bit of money doing one or two shows at a festival. we managed to do a showfight just using technices that makes sense in a real fight, so no "hollywood moves" take place.

The secret is,
to keep that pointy end thingy away from you...
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Sat 15 Dec, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Movie Fights...         Reply with quote

Do you know that film star Steven Seagal keeps several samurai swords at his home? Well, most of you don't. Before he became a film star Seagal was an Aikido instructor. He even trained several film stars including Sean Connery for the film Never Say Never Again (1983).
View user's profile Send private message
Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 629

PostPosted: Sun 16 Dec, 2007 4:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This reminds me of something I read about the old Shakespearian actors: they had to know fencing and know it pretty well, becuase plenty of people in the audience would have been decent fencers themselves and incorrecty performed fight scenes could get the actors booed out. Wink

But seriously, speaking as a great fan of Bob Anderson and his entire school of sword choreography, I don't hold realistic fighting in movies in very high regard. Movie choreography is an art in itself, with a very distinct purpouse: to entertain a broad audience and not just historical recreators, martial artists and historians. Razz

It's not about speed or power, but the timing and the beats between the two fighters. You make the movements large and flowing so that the viewers can appriciate them. You meet every attack with a parry, synchronicing the chime of the steel with the thundering score. The fighters have inhuman defence but die instantly from that one wound in the gut or chest. It's not realistic and it's not supposed to be.

Look at Star Wars. Look a Pirates of the Caribbean. Look at The Princess Bride, Zorro, the Three Musketeers, etc, etc. Don't try to tell me those movies would have actually benifited from realistic battles. I've seen realistic battles; they are boring, crude, quick and occasionally very ugly. What great romantic dreams of high adventure does that inspire in a young heart?

I'm not saying realistic fighting doesn't have a certain beauty of its own, nor do I say you can't have realistic fights in movies and make it look good. (I belive the one in Rob Roy is considered one of the best in that regard, and I did like that one.) What I'm saying is that when I go to the movies, I'm looking for some escapism which makes realism my least priority.

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
I think more reasonable fight scenes would improve the quality of the action. This is especially true for movies that strive to be gritty and realistic. The Proposition, I believe, is a great example how to do violence on the screen. The movie wouldn't have worked nearly as well if it'd used Hollywood conventions, especially those about injury and death.


This is a rather good point, actually. I suppose the most important thing is to match the degree of realism with the over-all mood of the story. It all comes down to what it is you want to say with your fight scene; which story it should communicate to the audience.

In this sense, realism can be preferable. However, the opposite is true as well: some movies just shouldn't be realistic.
View user's profile Send private message
Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 112 books

Posts: 1,019

PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, Steven Segal is a legit 6th dan in Aikido. Known this for years.

Bob
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
William Goodwin




Location: Roanoke,Va
Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 1,001

PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you haven't already seen it ......may I suggest finding a copy of Ridley Scotts 1977 film " The Duellists"

starring Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel.

Roanoke Sword Guilde

roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Goodwin wrote:
If you haven't already seen it ......may I suggest finding a copy of Ridley Scotts 1977 film " The Duellists"

starring Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel.


I have seen this a long time ago. Most excellent movie! I recommend it to all.

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Kevin Inouye




Location: Richmond, VA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't know that I'd call it a good movie, but yes, it had some good fights. To me, the Duellists is a good example of a film that has limited cult status amongst people interested in realistic sword fights... but little mainstream appeal.

Michael B, I'd be very interested in hearing more about your film!

There's a significant number of people who have contributed to the study of historical martial arts who came to it through stage combat. Jared Kirby (capo ferro, anyone?) , Brad Waller (mostly Marozzo, but others too) , Tony Wolf (Bartitsu is what he's best known for now in the HEMA community), Gareth and John from the Historical Maritime Combat Association... there are many others I've met but don't know as well, and more still I've never heard of I'm sure.

Stage combat is about choices. Realism is just one of those choices you can make.

Film combat is a slightly different creature, and has less HEMA practitioners that I know of (Anthony deLongis being one exception I know of).

Editing... well, that's a pet peeve for most of us choreographing and editing the fights as well, but I will say this- it has its uses. Quick cuts that convey chaos without letting you really follow the flow of the action are a good way to cover when your actor can't really pull it off, as it can be used to cover 'misses', insert more shots of the stuntperson, etc... but that should always be plan C or D, not a first choice strategy.

Freelance Hack... and slash... and thrust...
www.fightdesigner.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Movie fights...
Page 2 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum