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Brawn Barber
Location: In the shop Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 60
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 Posted: Wed 10 Jun, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for the kind support, guys.
He is home and recuperating, but I'll stil have my hands full for a while as no production seems to happen when I'm not around. 
He's also as pigheaded as I am though when it comes to medication. He refuses to take it and we have to physically hold him down. Kills me to do it, too. 
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Brawn Barber
Location: In the shop Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Tue 30 Jun, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: |
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I'll have to address things in spots here as since the surgery I have been backed up and work has to come first.
First off, I'll have to admit I've been able to gain some perspective here and was brought up in a strict German family where you do what you're told and don't question. Various alterations have been apparently applied to our method since its inception.
My grandmother was well versed in leather tanning and hardening methods for leather though and the basis for most of the family history. Unfortunately she is not around anymore. This included any early methods for leather use and its relation to armour. Although much of the information was passed down via hands on procedure she told me that it was her understanding that a number of different methods were used to harden leather for immediate use including fat. She shrugged when I asked her and said "they used whatever was around". This was not intended for any long term use but specifically to harden it long enough to survive for a limited time as basic protection. It would afterwards be discarded.
I've got to go cut up a few hides. Back in a bit.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Tue 30 Jun, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with this argument is that leather products seem to have been expensive in Western Europe. One wouldn't make armour from the stuff with the expectation of discarding it after a short period. This might be a valid argument further east. Leather armour was far more prevalent in central and eastern Europe.
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Brawn Barber
Location: In the shop Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Tue 30 Jun, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'd agree if I were specifically referring to Eastern Europe, Dan. Perhaps we have ventured so deep into this thread that we are arguing entirely different facets of this idea. Middle Europe in the medieval and middle ages was greatly composed of Germanic commerce and militaria which exploited and dominated much of Russia as well.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 01 Jul, 2009 1:43 am Post subject: |
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If we are talking about Germany then leather would not have been used as "temporary" armour. If you are talking about Eastern Europe then your grandmother might have a case.
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Robin Palmer
Location: herne bay Kent UK Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Wed 01 Jul, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all
As the proud owner of a harness of leather armour made by a friend I can testify as to it's effectiveness as battle armour it is light and tough. Raven soaked the leather in a cold bath for as long as it took to get soaked then put it into mould to shape and dry. Once dry he baked it in oven for a period time depending on the piece and thickness. results are excellent. I am not sure how it would hold up against sharp weapons but it has taken a lot of hits over the years and has little more than minor scratches and dents to show.
Yours Bob plamer.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 01 Jul, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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So is this relevant to the wax discussion? I don't see anybody arguing that hardened leather doesn't make effective armour.
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Brawn Barber
Location: In the shop Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed 01 Jul, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | If we are talking about Germany then leather would not have been used as "temporary" armour. If you are talking about Eastern Europe then your grandmother might have a case. |
What is referred to now as Germany is not what was then considered as Germany. As stated before, their control extended across Russia and Ukraine, which is pretty close to as east as you can get without being in Asia. You did state that leather would have been more prevelant in middle and eastern Europe. Now its just eastern Europe. Keep going and it'll be in the Ocean.
I also don't believe in this context she meant "all leather armour" was hardened by whatever and then tossed away. I think her meaning was that it could have easily been hardened by a number of means under differing circumstances and conditions.
I would agree that the readily available hardening method would be water but as has been stated before this does not make it "waterproof" and it would be prone to mildew and molding. if the leather was so expensive, why wouldn't it be treated to prevent just that?
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 01 Jul, 2009 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Brawn Barber wrote: |
I would agree that the readily available hardening method would be water but as has been stated before this does not make it "waterproof" and it would be prone to mildew and molding. if the leather was so expensive, why wouldn't it be treated to prevent just that? |
Definitely. Once leather was hardened it could be treated with oil, wax, lacquer, etc to make it more water resistant. A thin coating of wax is far far different to permeating the leather with wax. If your technique doesn't involve the latter then we have no disagreement.
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L. Clayton Parker
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| Posted: Wed 01 Jul, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: |
Compare this description to the D'Abernoun the Younger and De Creke brasses. If Nicolle was wrong about interpreting "steel plates" as a cuirass or coat-of-plates, then perhaps this was referring to the greaves and vambrace. Barber and Barker don't specify what "steel plates" meant. It could mean "pair-of-plates", "coat-of-plates", or "cuirass", but it could refer to the tubular steel defences for the limbs. Why insist that the outer gambeson should be made of precious cloth, preferably silk, if it was hidden beneath other garments? I know the hem may show anyway, but this description sounds remarkably similar to the harness depicted on the early 14th century brasses.
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I know this was an old post, but I wanted to point out (since no one else did) that there was a reason that silk was preferred under armor whenever it was available, it possesses properties remarkably similar to Kevlar, i.e. it is "bulletproof". Silk padded garments have been known to stop a bullet cold, they quite probably were similarly efficient with period weapons as well.
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh, because of fear in the night. -The Song of Songs, Which Is Solomon's
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Robin Palmer
Location: herne bay Kent UK Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Thu 02 Jul, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Dan
Appologies for my posting being out of context all I can say is I had a bad day and missed the fact there were extra pages.
A good friend who used to teach leather work at the london collage used to treat the surface of his work with a thin cover of semi melted wax. Hot enough to flow and be easly spread not hot enough to effect any treatment the leather had received.
Yours Bob.
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Alessio J. Orlandi
Location: Bologna, Italy Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Mon 10 Aug, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I missed some parts, but I can't find any historical proof of "cuir boulli". I have plenty of proofs that leather was used as armour in Bologna (Italy) in the XIII century, but no evidence of its hardening by immersion in boiling water.
I also work a lot with different kinds of leathers for historical reenactment purposes, and I can assure you that if you put leather in boiling water for more than 1 second it becomes totally useless.
The only leather i could "cook" without destroying it, was a 5 mm thick sole leather.
Today I tried for the n-th time to make a cuir boulli armour and I had to trash part of it away.
I think that this "cuir boulli" stuff is just a kind of widespread historical urban legend. Probably during XIX century someone said "Yes, they used cuir boulli" and everybody has taken this to be the truth. You can read "Encyclopedie Medieval" by Violet le Duc and find out that cuir boulli was used, but he gives no proofs.
My two cents: putting leather in boiling water will destroy everything, bee wax was too expensive to be used for a kind of armour that wasn't made for lasting long in time, 4 mm sole leather is a very good protection by itself.
These are my leather greaves
this is my Giotto-inspired leather armour
I can assure that they work perfectly without any boiling, waxing or else.
If someone has historical proofs (=original documents, not Osprey or s*** like that) of cuir boulli, please send/link/tell me.
Thanks.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Mon 10 Aug, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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"Bouilli" doesn't literally mean "boiled". It could, but it can also mean "cooked" or "stewed". There is documentary evidence stating that "cuir bouilli" was used as armor. If you want a cite then the earliest one is the Chanson d' Antioch (c.1180). The closest English translation of the above term would simply be "cooked leather". Try heating the leather in an oven or using water that is hot but not boiling. It will create armor that is far more effective than leaving it untreated.
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Tue 11 Aug, 2009 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Maybe the cooking was done during the leathering process at some point? I know a little bit about how leather was made in period, so this is purely conjecture.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Alessio J. Orlandi
Location: Bologna, Italy Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Tue 11 Aug, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | the earliest one is the Chanson d' Antioch (c.1180). |
Thank you so much. 
Anyway, I also tried soaking some 1 mm skin (i don't know the english name for it, in italian it is "crosta") and leaving it under the august sun, and i got some good results (it hardens a little).
Concerning the meaning of "boulli", in french it means "boiled". So, in the original sources, is it really called "cuir boulli" or is this just a modern misleading terminology?
Thank u again.
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Steven H
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| Posted: Tue 11 Aug, 2009 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Alessio-
If you check you armourarchive.org the forum there has a wealth of information on modern experiments to produce effective hardened leather armour. The short version is that 180 degree oven will harden wet leather well.
Cheers,
Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Barry C. Hutchins
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| Posted: Tue 11 Aug, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Cairns & Brother, Inc. although now owned by MSA are still manufacturing leather fire helmets
( http://www.msafire.com/cairns_history.html ); both companies have always been forthcoming in providing information as long as it was not a trade secret.
I can personally attest to the toughness of their leather fire helmets.
I suspect that a general overview of their process of making the leather fire helmets could be had for the asking.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Tue 11 Aug, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Alessio J. Orlandi wrote: | | Concerning the meaning of "boulli", in french it means "boiled". So, in the original sources, is it really called "cuir boulli" or is this just a modern misleading terminology? |
The misunderstanding comes from the fact that the English word "boiled" comes from bouilli. The word actually has a wider context and can be used to refer to many different ways of "cooking" something, of which boiling is only one. As I said "cooked leather" would be a more accurate English translation.
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Brawn Barber
Location: In the shop Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Tue 11 Aug, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Alessio J. Orlandi wrote: | Maybe I missed some parts, but I can't find any historical proof of "cuir boulli". I have plenty of proofs that leather was used as armour in Bologna (Italy) in the XIII century, but no evidence of its hardening by immersion in boiling water.
I also work a lot with different kinds of leathers for historical reenactment purposes, and I can assure you that if you put leather in boiling water for more than 1 second it becomes totally useless.
The only leather i could "cook" without destroying it, was a 5 mm thick sole leather.
Today I tried for the n-th time to make a cuir boulli armour and I had to trash part of it away.
I think that this "cuir boulli" stuff is just a kind of widespread historical urban legend. Probably during XIX century someone said "Yes, they used cuir boulli" and everybody has taken this to be the truth. You can read "Encyclopedie Medieval" by Violet le Duc and find out that cuir boulli was used, but he gives no proofs.
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I actually had a moment to check the Forum and noted that this thread still thrives. I don't get much time for this guys, so I apologize for lapses in response.
In relation to the evidence of leather armour is that he main problem the organic nature of leather. Say we were to strip off your skin and leave it lying around for 500 years or so. Do you think we would still find it? I think not.
Therefore there is far more written documentation of the use of cuirbouille leather and leather armour than there is actual physical evidence. Go figure.
Dan, I wanted to let you know that a number of methods of hardening leather have been cited to me for use, including both permeating and exclusion of wax altogether, depending on the application. However, the saturation does not completely detract from the protection however does ensure a better weather resistance. Application of the section of armour specifically can influence much of what types of hardening method is used. Actual "boiling" of leather is destroying the molecular structure, to be sure. I agree that the leather was not boiled, but lightly stewed or "cooked".
I have documented some more leather testing by video which will be posted to the site shortly. I will post a link here as soon as I can.
Cheers
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Barry C. Hutchins
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This is a standard topic