[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

Richard,
Welcome!

I'm fairly new to this site as well, and was attracted to it by the above-average intelligence and quality of the discussions here. It seems we both found a new cyberspace home!

Now, be careful basing your armour knowledge on role-playing games. I was originally drawn to the study of arms and armour by playing Dungeons and Dragons in the mid-80's (am I horribly dating myself here?), but their information isn't always accurate. I would highly recommend getting yourself some quality books on the subject. One of the best, although hard to find, is Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight by David Edge and John Miles Paddock. Anything by Ewart Oakeshott would also be a help, although some of his information regarding the padded garments worn beneath armour is a bit outdated. Take a look at some of our reading lists to get a good idea of what's available to further your knowledge!

Now, about leather armour; keep in mind that this was typically worn as a supplement to a mail hauberk and a padded gambeson or aketon. There are a few manuscript images that may show a "curie" (leather breastplate) worn by itself, but leather usually supplemented other defences. Also, leather or "cuir-boulli" (hardened leather) was most prevalent during the late 13th-early 14th centuries, a time of great experimentation in armour. This period also saw armour made from horn, latten (a medieval type of copper-alloy similar to brass), and whalebone (or baleen).

There is a great debate over "studded leather" like Jean described. It is prevalent in role-playing games, but may not have been used historically. However, "studded and splinted armour", armour pieces where long, thin strips of metal and round studs were attached to leather (or perhaps cloth), was used in 14th century Germany and England. Many German effigies of the period, like that of Kaiser Gunther of Schwarzburg, Heinrich of Seinsheim, Conrad of Seinsheim, and Gottfried, Count of Arensberg, depict limb protections of "stud and splint" protection. The lost brass of Sir Miles Stapleton is one english example. Keep in mind that each of these knights wore "stud and splint" as a supplement to mail, and probably wore a metal breastplate or a coat-of-plates as a torso defence.

If you wish to do more accurate testing, you probably should get some padding and quality rivetted mail to test with your leather. It won't be cheap, but it would be a more accurate representation of what the typical medieval warrior of the early 14th century might have worn. I won't go too deeply into testing, though, since a lot has already been said regarding the issue.

If you have any questions about leather armour, or armour in general, feel free to ask on these forums. There are many knowledgable members that would be glad to help.

Stay safe!

Richard F.

[Dan Howard]

Current thinking is that "studded leather" is a misinterpretation of brigandine illustrations. Studded armour did not exist historically. Practical experimentation suports this. Adding metal studs to leather or quilted cloth provides virtually no additional protection against any of the weapons faced on a medieval battlefield.

Regarding boiled leather. Firstly, it isn't really "boiled." It is heated/cooked but if temperatures reach boiling point then the leather is often ruined. Secondly, you can't just go and buy some leather from a shop and heat it. It needs to be vegetable tanned leather. Most modern tanning methods produce leather that cannot be made into cuir bouilli.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

[Richard Fay]

Hello again!

I remembered another thing I read that led me to believe that the "studded" garment on the early 14th century English brasses may be a type of gambeson instead of a coat-of-plates. Mention is made in both Tournaments by Richard Barber and Juliet Barker and Warrior 18: Knight of Outremer 1187-1344 AD by David Nicolle of an early fourteenth century armorial treatise that describes how a knight should arm for combat and the tournament. The two books differ slightly in their interpretation; Nicolle says the knight preparing for the joust puts on an aketon, hauberk, and gambeson faced with fine silk, then plates or cuirass, shield, bascinet, and great helm. The book by Barber and Barker says that the knight preparing for the joust must put on his aketon, hauberk, and gambeson, the last a quilted surcoat made of precious cloth, then steel plates, a shield, a bascinet, and helm complete the outfit.

Compare this description to the D'Abernoun the Younger and De Creke brasses. If Nicolle was wrong about interpreting "steel plates" as a cuirass or coat-of-plates, then perhaps this was referring to the greaves and vambrace. Barber and Barker don't specify what "steel plates" meant. It could mean "pair-of-plates", "coat-of-plates", or "cuirass", but it could refer to the tubular steel defences for the limbs. Why insist that the outer gambeson should be made of precious cloth, preferably silk, if it was hidden beneath other garments? I know the hem may show anyway, but this description sounds remarkably similar to the harness depicted on the early 14th century brasses.

I know the treatise definitely mentions the addition of "plates de alemayne" (coat-of-plates, literally "German plates") and a "gorgeres" (gorget) as additions for war. The aketon-hauberk-gambeson combination was more for the joust (I assume the "joust of peace"), but perhaps old-fashioned English knights sometimes wore lighter, outdated armour. It fits with what Jean le Bel said about english equipment of the early 14th century.

It's getting late (and cold) here in "The Great Northeast". I hope this all made some sense!

Stay safe!

[Dan Howard]

[Herbert Schmidt]

I think your method of making hardened leather is responsible for the results. I have wax hardened leather in use for a sheath and it is almost like plastik, no way you are going to cut it through in normal use (everything can be destroyed). I know of two ways to harden leather and they both work well enough to give good protection. The one is with wax, the other with soda. So maybe instead of dismissing things to quickly I would rather try to research more and be sure you used the right method. Just rubbing in hot wax won't do, I agree.

I have never made any armour parts from hardened leather but as I said, the sheaths behave like plastik or kydex.

greetings

Herbert

[Al Muckart]

Hi Herbert,

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

[Lawrence Parramore]

Hi, I came across your leather armour topic, and it reminded me of what I had heard about the Zulus and Fussy Wussies of Africa in that their leather shields were so hard that the bullets ricocheted of them and the British armies swords were either broken or bent on contact. I think the reason steel armour supplanted leather was because it presented a glancing surface and was more upmarket, whereas leather would transfer the thrust more easily and might leave a knight unhorsed and in a bad position, also leather might have been seen as cheap.
Have none of you guys heard of Waterer he wrote a couple of books on the subject of leather and if I remember rightly went into detail on hardening leather particularly using very hot water, think it was boiling water and the leather is dipped quickly it then shrinks then you put this in molds, all done quickly!
I tried water, oil and wax and got good results with all about 23 years ago, but it is the process that is important, all of them can give from soft to so hard that they will crack.
Another factor is that leather can go off, steel rusts, so over time the leather one would be knocked about and go mouldy whereas the steel armour could be passed on or altered?
There is at least one mold for a shield found in Ireland sorry don't know where I saw it.!
As to painting on waxed leather,,, er why not, never heard of 'encaustic', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encaustic_painting
As to gilding waxed or whatever leather there are many ways of gilding, including powdered gold leaf in wax.
Here is an illustration but not period unfortunately http://www.sturgeconservation.co.uk/gilt-and-...vation.htm
I am pretty sure some of the surcoats were painted and molded leather to judge from the effigys .
Oh and felt comes to mind also, the 'lincoln green' of robin hood's men was very likely the green felt of Richard the lionheart's archers who themselves returned from battle looking like hedgehogs because of the arrows the felt had saved them from, and then there is horn armour too.
My first time on this site, my apologies for the lack of illustrations to out line my points.
Best regards Lawrence

[David Huggins]

Hi,

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but I was told that cuir boulli was produced by boiling in oil, speciffically fish oil. It was an old friend ,Mark Beaby, who is the leather artisan at the Royal Armouries Leeds who told me this.

I would recommend that you get a copy of 'Leather & the Warrior' by J.Waterer, still available online from Caliver Books here in the U.K.

Vegatable tanned leather is still available from various leather craft suppliers and re-enactor traders.

Best

Dave

[Jean Thibodeau]

Laurence there is also this thread discussing basically the same thing: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1510

Well, if you read all the posts on that Topic thread there are a lot of varied opinions about how useful leather was as armour and one thing that was convincing was that the cost of leather didn't make it a cheaper choice than maille or plate.

Depending on period we have mostly guesses about what was used and depending on the leather type the level of protection could be variable.

Some of the boiled leather seem to be very effective and exotic stuff like Rhino or Crocodile leather might be very effective?

My original thought about this was that in pre-history when metal was unknown there may have been a lot of armour based on organic materials that we have no proof about since it all rotted away !

This could be any kind of leather or textile armour by itself or reinforced with wood, bone/horn, seashells maybe even stone: Basically Neolithic cultures before writing or metal use. NO proof it just seems to me that humans where not stupid even 20,000 years ago and the idea of armour would have been just copying nature ! Once the idea of a shield was known other pieces of armour would be " logical " supplements to it.

[Kel Rekuta]

[Lawrence Parramore]

I think somebody mentioned earlier that it is like cooking, I like my bacon crispy whereas others may like it nearly raw, so don't cook it till the leather is crispy.

[David Huggins]

[Bram Verbeek]

A quick way to see if the leather is chrome tanned, is to put it in a microwave, chrome will have the same effect as gold linings on cups, so the difference is very obvious. Now if I only knew that before I cut over 1200 scales and put holes in them...

[Al Muckart]

[Brian Robson]

Hi,

I think we need to be careful in discarding certain methods of treating the leather based on its resistance to cutting. In all case I am aware of, leather was worn in addition to mail - and it seems to me that it is there to make up for the shortcomings of mail.

Mail is very good at resisting cuts and thrusts, but not very protective against impacts. Hardened, moulded leather gives very good protection against blunt impacts (I know this from doing live steel re-enactment) - and by the sounds of it is not so good vs cuts/thrusts.

It would appear to me that a mix of mail and hardened leather would give very good all-round protection (even if the leather may be a bit shredded by the end of the battle!).

Thanks,
Brian

[Al Muckart]

Hi Brian,

[Steven H]

Al-

You make several good points. But you neglect to mention glue-hardening techniques. Are you familiar with these?

-Steven