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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: I'm making my first blade - XIV century dagger         Reply with quote

I have just hammered my first blade, a dagger, I did it in XVI century forge, I did a lot of errors in shape but I corrected almost all of them by grinding.

Low carbon steel, as in old times, 0,3 - 0,4 % carbon, the finished blade will be carburized for strength and elasticity by case hardening, I will be using a nice medieval style pack of charcoal powder wrapped in leather skin.

The blade is 45 cm long, distal taper will be evident, starting from 4.2 mm to 3 mm something at the starting of the debole (last third of the blade).

Pommel will likely be oval, cross as simple as possible.

I have measured three period sword from a private collection (a type XII sword and a couple of stoccos from the XIV century, plus many XV century blades).

So I made a direct experience of actual blades and crosses, took measurements of distal tapers, weights, point of balances etc.

Alas i'm not allowed to publish these swords by express order of the owner.

Obviously i verified myself what has been said by connosseurs, real blades have nothing to do with most of the modern replicas.

Most of them ( I also examined a spate of healthy schiavonas with various kind of blades) feel like feathers in your hands.

The only exception was the type XII, heavily unbalanced, ridicolously little pommel: all the weigth was in the point.

Likely made to make is a slashing tools.


The impressions I feel from my blade, at this point of grinding, distal taper is still unsatisfactory, are not so bad, even without a pommel and cross the blade is light (less than 700 grams) and maneuverable.

rather elastic too, if hit with a metal tool it rings satisfactorily

The tang is still unfinished, not yet tapered both distally and laterally, so this add to the weight and lack of feather-like feel, however i know I'm on the right track.
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Blaz Berlec




Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Picts picts picts!

Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century


Last edited by Blaz Berlec on Tue 05 Sep, 2006 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blaz Berlec wrote:
Picts picts picts!


Tomorrow, sir, here in this dark corner of Europe it is almost midnight.

Thank you for your interest.
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Blaz Berlec




Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Err, I'm only a couple of hours away from you, assuming you are from Italy. Happy

But your project sounds interesting. I don't think anyone else uses case hardening now. Could be fairly tricky to get the right amount of carbon into the blade, and then heat treat it...


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aren't Picts a type of celtic warrior??? Surprised
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Blaz Berlec




Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep, 2006 9:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is terribly off topic but apparently I have to explain everything in my short post of one word and one small picture. Eek!

Word "picts" is found 61 times on this forum, word "pict" 25 times if you use the search function. I think that only 1 or 2 of these posts actually uses the word to describe Scottish natives, all the rest are just funny typo error (like "pwned" for "owned"). I know, silly, but it has ben done before.

And I'm sorry for the screenshot of the message, I found it funny, but it was totally off-topic. I have removed it from my message.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bruno, I'm still interested in seeing your product. Big Grin


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 06 Sep, 2006 1:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blaz Berlec wrote:
This is terribly off topic but apparently I have to explain everything in my short post of one word and one small picture. Eek!

Word "picts" is found 61 times on this forum, word "pict" 25 times if you use the search function. I think that only 1 or 2 of these posts actually uses the word to describe Scottish natives, all the rest are just funny typo error (like "pwned" for "owned"). I know, silly, but it has ben done before.

And I'm sorry for the screenshot of the message, I found it funny, but it was totally off-topic. I have removed it from my message.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bruno, I'm still interested in seeing your product. Big Grin


Ah ah, now I'm understood, you are slovenian.

Mistook you for a czech.

You are welcome to visit me, I will pm you details.

I have been working in the famous town of Bienno, where two middle age style waterwheel powered Magli (enormous power hammes) are still extant and in working order.

Yes, I saw old masters raising buckets the middle age way, same process tor aise one piece helms or armor parts.

yes I have a couple of small movies I will post tonight.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Sep, 2006 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The term "picts" has indeed been used before, but most prefer to use "pics" as a shortening of "pictures" as it takes just the first syllable of the word (pic-tures) as the shortened form of the word. Really, though, this "picts" discussion is off-topic and should go no further.

I would love to see pics of the project as well, Bruno. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 06 Sep, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You will pardon me the defects of this picxties .. pictures.

they are taken with an uncontrollabole digital camera, plus an incorporated flash on the camera's lens' axis:there are shadows that alter a bit the point profile, also there appear to be irregularities that do not exist.

Defects of the surface are greatly enhanced. Please remember that I'm not yet finished grinding it, it is still unpolished, a thing that will be completed after carburizing.

The tang has yet to be enlarged a bit and distally tapered for balance.

this is the first rough grinding, tomorrow I will be at the forge and grinder again.



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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 06 Sep, 2006 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tang. Pic more realistic


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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 06 Sep, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This tang is to be corrected slightly leftward by hammering it hot, with a few gentle strikes.
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Shawn Shaw




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Sep, 2006 6:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's some pretty impressive work for your first time, I'd say. I'm working on my first knife and I've just finished the rough forging and I'm planning on finishing it on the grinder. Your tang shape is very good, I especially like the shoulders where it meets the blade. Did you do that with the hammer or did you grind those nice curves in?
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 06 Sep, 2006 10:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shawn Shaw wrote:
That's some pretty impressive work for your first time, I'd say. I'm working on my first knife and I've just finished the rough forging and I'm planning on finishing it on the grinder. Your tang shape is very good, I especially like the shoulders where it meets the blade. Did you do that with the hammer or did you grind those nice curves in?


I corrected them slightly after forging, most of the shape was already there.

Also the tang needs to be corrected by a very narrow angle lenghtwise, it is almost invisible if not observed in silouhette.

I have measured an actual type XII sword, rusted but still in decent shape, tang has a clear distal taper narrowing towards the end, as well as a clear profile taper.

It even has a fuller itself. (sorry no pics because of the private collection stuff etc.)

I don't know if I will be willing to amke a fuller, not much profile taper will be needed, a distal taper will be instead ground.

Thank you for your comment
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep, 2006 1:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I look forward to seing what the finsihed dagger looks like, Bruno!
What kind of materials will you use for the handle?

Cheers,
Henrik

Constant and true.
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep, 2006 2:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Bjoern Boegh wrote:
I look forward to seing what the finsihed dagger looks like, Bruno!
What kind of materials will you use for the handle?

Cheers,
Henrik


I have found a good carpenter that will likely find me some well seasoned oak wood of the best quality (italian noce nazionale).

It shall likely be a simple oakwood handle, inspired to historical specimens I saw (one is in Mantova's diocesan museum, same hall as the famous armors).

Anoter option is a hardwood core coverd with brown quality lether, with a spiral riser made in the venetian fashion (pretty large spiral), as i saw at the Marzoli museum on later period schiavonas.
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Michal Plezia
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep, 2006 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks good! Every time when I see a topic like this I want to try to make my own blade too.
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep, 2006 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Today i finished flattening and correcting the tang.

Also I made a rough blank for the cross, piercing it almost perfectly.

File work will be necessary for the cross hole and slot to be perfect, arms are still to be cut to proper lenght and hamered into proper shape.

The blank has been made at the power hammer, piercing was made with a traditional style piercing tool (foradùr in brescian language), an hammer shaped tool with a flat sharpened beak and a wide back.

It was made by two people, an expert professionist, a wrought iron smith, and me.

He gave me access to his shop, but I used a traditional carbon forge fueled with coke and later charcoal.

Shaping of the cross will occur next week, it will be obviously reduced in width, arms will be slanted downward a bit (maciejowski style), also they will be distally and linearly tapered.



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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A first blank had gone awry, I left it one minute too much in the forge when i switched from coke to charcoal, when I was back one of the arms had been burnt away.

I had made an igloo style mound to betetr heat the pieces, estimating low the power of such forge.

It revealed more powerful than a gas one!

Actyually igloos were used for welding by brazing .... when the piece emerged broken it was white hot.

there was no way to work in the dark, since here it is again stifling hot, it is impossible to keep a forge inside a hall, however big.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep, 2006 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno;

Interesting post: It always nice to see the work and thought that goes into making a design, as well as the choices.

The blade looks lenticular in the early pics to me and more diamond shaped in the last few ? Assuming we are looking at the same blade.

Are you planning in it having a fuller or fullers ? Just curious as these I would guess would be at least partially forged into the blade ? Although they could be ground / machines in. So, far my best guess is for no fullers.

Looking forward to following the process to the finished dagger. Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep, 2006 10:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Bruno;

Interesting post: It always nice to see the work and thought that goes into making a design, as well as the choices.

The blade looks lenticular in the early pics to me and more diamond shaped in the last few ? Assuming we are looking at the same blade.

Are you planning in it having a fuller or fullers ? Just curious as these I would guess would be at least partially forged into the blade ? Although they could be ground / machines in. So, far my best guess is for no fullers.

Looking forward to following the process to the finished dagger. Cool


Lenticular, possibly with a very short and narrow fuller, as i saw in a work by Boccia (pics are tricky, especially because for want of time I use a flash, which makes strange effects).

At this point I could still forge a fuller, which is likely less risky and difficult than grinding it, I would have to find extra time to forge the proper tools.
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