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Walter Stockwell
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 Posted: Tue 29 Aug, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| GG Osborne wrote: | | Right on Mac. I think everyone is in violent agreement about the plainness and utilitarian nature. However, what did the d@%& things actually look like? Cylindrical grip with no ornamentation? "Dagger" type grips? Were they carved or lathed? I have seen quite a few simple reproduction dirks made by folks just turning a round grip with pommels and sticking that on a blade. I don't mean to get pedantic or nitpicky, I was just wondering if anyone has looked at those reserve collections long enough to have some first person impressions or comments. |
At least in the cities, there were craft guilds that controled the manufacture of dirks, knives and swords. One person made the blades, another hafted them. I would imagine the person making the grip would make a batch of rough handles, then fit them to the actual blade and do any customization required at that time. The NMS have a grip that fits this profile -- it is sort of roughed out, even has some carving, but was never fitted to a blade.
Walter
www.stockwellknives.com
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Thomas Pludra
Location: Solingen/Germany Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue 29 Aug, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
Walter, this controling of dirk making by craft guilds is very interesting. Itīs the first time I heard of that (but this doesnīt mean anything)  . As there are bladesmiths known by their marks, do you know the names of any handle maker or their marks (if there are known any?)
I often did ask myself if bladesmiths made the dirks completely or if it was a joint venture.
Cheers
Thomas
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Tue 29 Aug, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: |
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IIRC, there were even laws regulating grip materials. Unscrupulous types were using cheap wood and staining it to resemble higher-quality materials. The term "dudgeon" actually refers to the common, inexpensive wood (possibly Boxwood) used for "everyman dirks" and such. There's debate about what the term "in high dudgeon" means. Well, actually we know that it means "very angry," but we aren't sure of its origin. Does it mean "up a tree" (i.e., put-out or furious) or so angry one is fit to stab somebody.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt
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Walter Stockwell
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| Posted: Wed 30 Aug, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas Pludra wrote: | Hello,
Walter, this controling of dirk making by craft guilds is very interesting. Itīs the first time I heard of that (but this doesnīt mean anything) . As there are bladesmiths known by their marks, do you know the names of any handle maker or their marks (if there are known any?)
I often did ask myself if bladesmiths made the dirks completely or if it was a joint venture.
Cheers
Thomas |
Hmm, I have to retreat from my previous statement a bit. I was speaking from memory -- when I went home and checked my books, I had it a bit wrong.
A great reference for this is Charles E. Whitelaw "Scottish Arms Makers." He looked through records dating back to the 1500's kept by the guilds and bouroughs in Scotland. The book is a big list of excerpts of records listing people and what craft they were registered as practicing. He also lists some wills of craftsmen -- these show what the people had on hand when they died and what the value was.
Some of the crafts listed include:
armourer -- someone who fits swords and scabbards. John Stirling is a famous example. Does not make sword blades!
cutler -- someone who makes knives. Fancy knives might be sent to a goldsmith/silversmith for handling.
lorimar -- someone who makes sword guards, as well as bridles, bits etc.
There are mentions of legal disputes brought against people for practicing outside of their craft. I.e., an armourer fixing guns.
There is sometimes mention of what the craftsmen submitted as their "essay" to enter the guild. The cutlers often are listed as submitting "whingers" and "broad blade knife" (I've anglecized the spellings as I don't have the book in front of me) but nothing specifically listed as a dirk in any of the spellings I could see. Perhaps what we call a dirk today falls into the "broad blade knife" category?
In short ... dirks were most probably made by cutlers, and therefore could have been made by a single person. Although the master would have had a shop with apprentices and journeymen. I would imagine the work would be split up some. And Whitelaw does mention an anecdote of a French traveler meeting a cutler who shows him a drawer full of half finished dirks that would be available for finishing and sale. This backs up the notion that the final product could be made fancier or plainer at the final steps.
Swords are a different manner. Apparently, most sword blades were imported. Building a sword could then involve a lorimar to make a guard and an armourer to build the handle and scabbard, and assemble all together. As far as I know, dirks were very rarely marked by their maker, and sword guards only started being marked around the time of the fancy basket hilts. John Stirling was one of the first to regularly mark his pieces.
Walter
www.stockwellknives.com
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh
Location: Agder, Norway Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Wed 30 Aug, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Walter, this is very interesting! Thank you for sharing this!
Cheers,
Henrik
Constant and true.
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Thomas Pludra
Location: Solingen/Germany Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed 30 Aug, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Yes, thank you, Walter, for this particular answer. So it seems that the idea of clansmen sitting together by the fire and carving their dirks isnīt the one and only truth, as itīs the most romantic, isnīt it?! Maybe , the everymanīs dirk was made that way using the few leisure hours the farmers and warriors had those days, as the wealthier men got their dirks made by the cutler?!
I wonder, wether weīll get to see some of those all-day-tools here.
Really hope so.
Cheers
Thomas
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 30 Aug, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | IIRC, there were even laws regulating grip materials. Unscrupulous types were using cheap wood and staining it to resemble higher-quality materials. The term "dudgeon" actually refers to the common, inexpensive wood (possibly Boxwood) used for "everyman dirks" and such. There's debate about what the term "in high dudgeon" means. Well, actually we know that it means "very angry," but we aren't sure of its origin. Does it mean "up a tree" (i.e., put-out or furious) or so angry one is fit to stab somebody. |
High dudgeon: Maybe meaning dagger held high ready to stab down ??? But who knows as English is full of these
" understood " expressions as far as meaning is concerned, but not so well understood exactly why.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sean Flynt
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 30 Aug, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Sean;
IN high dudgeon ! Doesn't that sound like it might be the description of a " guard " used with dudgeons ? Emphasis on the
"IN ".  
As in " IN LONGPOINT " as an example ? Maybe the only surviving part of a whole bunch of other dudgeon guards !
How much is known about dudgeon/ ballock/ dirk fighting forms ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Walter Stockwell
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| Posted: Thu 31 Aug, 2006 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas Pludra wrote: | Yes, thank you, Walter, for this particular answer. So it seems that the idea of clansmen sitting together by the fire and carving their dirks isnīt the one and only truth, as itīs the most romantic, isnīt it?! Maybe , the everymanīs dirk was made that way using the few leisure hours the farmers and warriors had those days, as the wealthier men got their dirks made by the cutler?!
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I don't think even the highlands were that isolated. One of the wills of an armourer in Edinburgh listed bills from Dublin, Skye, and Mull among other places. Scotland imported swords -- this implies trade goods moving both ways throughout the country.
The NMS have a few matching dirks that were clearly carved by the same person. They have the exact same designs on the handles. I suppose it would be wrong to draw a conclusion from samples at one museum, but I've not seen examples of "amateur" carved dirks. This seems to be in direct contradiction with the situation in the US for example. It is possible to find examples of home-grown, non-specialist knives from the 18th century in the US.
I don't know what the guild situation in the Amercian colonies was, but it seems that Scotland was a more structured society in many ways (being much older! and part of a larger feudal system.)
Walter
www.stockwellknives.com
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Martin Wilkinson
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| Posted: Fri 01 Sep, 2006 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Walter Stockwell wrote: | Some of the crafts listed include:
armourer -- someone who fits swords and scabbards. John Stirling is a famous example. Does not make sword blades!
cutler -- someone who makes knives. Fancy knives might be sent to a goldsmith/silversmith for handling.
lorimar -- someone who makes sword guards, as well as bridles, bits etc. |
Walter, it's my understanding that Cutlers made sword hilts.
I may well be wrong, and can't remember my source, but i am sure i read that somewhere.
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."
Schola Gladiatoria
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Walter Stockwell
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| Posted: Fri 01 Sep, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Wilkinson wrote: |
Walter, it's my understanding that Cutlers made sword hilts.
I may well be wrong, and can't remember my source, but i am sure i read that somewhere. |
It would be interesting to see a source. Perhaps this was somewhere else than Scotland? The book I have (Whitelaw) is very specific to Scotland and specific that cutlers had nothing to do with swords. There was another craft called "swordslipper" that put together swords as well as "armourers." Sort of an armourer with no armour. 
Walter
www.stockwellknives.com
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Sean Flynt
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 01 Sep, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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A few bits from the Glossary of Charles Whitelaw's "Scottish Arms Makers" .
Mac
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'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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GG Osborne
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| Posted: Fri 01 Sep, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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But does anyone have pictures?????????
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 01 Sep, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| GG Osborne wrote: | | But does anyone have pictures????????? |
Exasperated posting with many, many punctuation marks doesn't necessarily help situations.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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GG Osborne
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| Posted: Fri 01 Sep, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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You don't really believe that was exasperation, do you?
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 01 Sep, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| GG Osborne wrote: | | You don't really believe that was exasperation, do you? |
Nine question marks is excessive no matter the reason.
I might be able to find some gralloch type knives were were more hunting knives than dirks. There are also some other Scottish non-dirk daggers I might have in some of my books. I'll look and see what I can find though my scanner is unavailable at the moment.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 01 Sep, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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I was able to get to my scanner, so here are some more plain/crude examples of Scottish sidearm-length edged weapons. Some of these are pretty unevenly or sloppily carved/crafted.
It's not easy finding these non-fancy items, since many publications focus on what's sexy and nice, not more common implements.
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Gralloch knife
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An early dirk
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Somewhat crude brass-hilted dirks.
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Dudgeon dagger, somewhat crudely carved
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Scottish dagger
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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This is a standard topic