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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,

Perhaps one way that a cheaper version could be offered (along the lines of what Howy was saying about having two types of messer) is to make ones which are more rugged, with the quick and dirty hilts more consistent with some of the less high end antiques that you've seen?
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Peter,

Perhaps one way that a cheaper version could be offered (along the lines of what Howy was saying about having two types of messer) is to make ones which are more rugged, with the quick and dirty hilts more consistent with some of the less high end antiques that you've seen?


They have a Maestro Line messer coming called the Marxbruder. It might be more of a falchion, though.

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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:

They have a Maestro Line messer coming called the Marxbruder. It might be more of a falchion, though.


Maestros aren't functional, though, are they? I think there might be a demand for a cheaper yet fully functional messer.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Craig Peters wrote:
Peter,

Perhaps one way that a cheaper version could be offered (along the lines of what Howy was saying about having two types of messer) is to make ones which are more rugged, with the quick and dirty hilts more consistent with some of the less high end antiques that you've seen?


They have a Maestro Line messer coming called the Marxbruder. It might be more of a falchion, though.


The Marxbruder is a grossemesser, but as you know it's specially designed for sparring. I was referring to a NG messer with a possible cheaper price point that was along the lines of what Howy mentioned about being simpler.
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Joel Chesser




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

HOLY SNAP! Thats AWSOME!
..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason Dingledine wrote:
In addition to the other comments that have been made about the lug, it is also part of what locks the guard into place. This sword type doesn't have the traditional shoulder seating of what we think of on swords, but the slot for tang & blade extend through the guard.


Wow Jason, thats pretty flipping sweet. Thanks for the explanation! I'm curious now about the fighting techneque used now. Over all I can imagine the cutting potential already, but the gritty hand to hand has been given a new angle thats complex yet fascinating.

The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good lord, that's beautiful! And that doesn't even have the fuller in the grip!

I've got the maestro version on pre-order... but I don't know, I may have to break down and get the sharp version as well!

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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 8:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Nathan Robinson wrote:
Craig Peters wrote:
Peter,

Perhaps one way that a cheaper version could be offered (along the lines of what Howy was saying about having two types of messer) is to make ones which are more rugged, with the quick and dirty hilts more consistent with some of the less high end antiques that you've seen?


They have a Maestro Line messer coming called the Marxbruder. It might be more of a falchion, though.


The Marxbruder is a grossemesser, but as you know it's specially designed for sparring. I was referring to a NG messer with a possible cheaper price point that was along the lines of what Howy mentioned about being simpler.


Maybe a Squire Line messer would be appropriate.

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John Cooksey




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: Very interesting . . . .         Reply with quote

That appears to be a very rugged, simple, brutal weapon. I like the "no concealment" design very much. I hadn't thought I wanted one at all, but now . . . . . . . I think it might make an amazing sidearm or pillow sword.
Tough as "nails" would be my guess----just the way I like 'em.

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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 11:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow-really, really nice sword!
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Sat 12 Aug, 2006 1:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Peter,

Perhaps one way that a cheaper version could be offered (along the lines of what Howy was saying about having two types of messer) is to make ones which are more rugged, with the quick and dirty hilts more consistent with some of the less high end antiques that you've seen?


Here is the problem:
The originals that were somewhat sloppy in their fit and finish, were forged out without much time spent on filework, just a surface finish on top of hammer shaping.

If I were to carve a "sloppy" or uneve, wawy and ill fitting wax original or forge an original part to be molded and then cast it would actually be *more* work to keep that surface character and still take of the casting pits and skin. It would make the piece *more* costly in stead of cheaper since cutlery would take longer and be more fiddly.
Only way to make cost lower is to minimize man hours.
With a construction like this we have a weapon that is abour intensive to begin with, regardles of the design of the separate parts. If you want to take away workj time, you will have to go with another construction method and thereby compormize the authentic construction method. That is a No-no with the NG line as it is one of the primary goals with all the products in the line: as authentic assembly methods as possible.
It is especially critical with a messer type weapon as the assembly is so visible and part of the character of the weapon.
Change that and you get something that is more a falchion than a messer. A strange beast that might fit in some other prodcution, but not Albion Next Generation line.

To ask for a Squire Line version is not really sound thinking either: Squire Line swords minimize details and finish, but build on the same construction methodss. By minimizing finish and details you would gain some small amount, but it would still be far too expensive to fit the Squire Line concept, just because of its involved construction.

It might be possible to make a messer with somewhat simpler parts, but the basic design will never allow these to be in the low price range without compromizes that either make them un-authentic, less than rugged and wear resistant or not so good weapons. None of these options will go well with the Albion philosophy.
Big enough demand by enthusiasts for this type of weapon and there will be production companies jumping on the trend: you will see cheaper weapons that are cheaprs by either being produced by low payed labour or having severe compromizes in their design/construction (or both of these combined).

What Albion is doing is offering deeply researched recreations of historical weapons with high standards on style and details. All products are based on personal hands on experience of originals. That is quite unique in the market today. By asking to have products that are lower priced by deviating from this philosophy is not really conductive in the support of the standards that Albion strive to uphold.

I am quite certain that you can convince some custom maker or perhaps even production company to make a "version" of a messer that is cheaper by some simplification. That is open for everyone. By doing that one should keep in mind that the first priority for such a project is the *compromize* not the intention to make perfect.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sat 12 Aug, 2006 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good points Peter. I'd rather see Albions be more expensive than end up compromising in quality too much, which is probably what would happen if one started fiddling around with the designs.
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Aug, 2006 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kudos to both Peter and Albion for this beautiful design. I find the Meister prototype very attractive, as-is.
Peter Johnsson wrote:
...With a construction like this we have a weapon that is abour intensive to begin with, regardles of the design of the separate parts. If you want to take away workj time, you will have to go with another construction method and thereby compormize the authentic construction method. That is a No-no with the NG line as it is one of the primary goals with all the products in the line: as authentic assembly methods as possible.
It is especially critical with a messer type weapon as the assembly is so visible and part of the character of the weapon.
Change that and you get something that is more a falchion than a messer. A strange beast that might fit in some other prodcution, but not Albion Next Generation line....

Peter,
In order to clarify your comments about the difficulty of the visible construction, I think that what you are talking about is the need for perfect alignment of all of the interfaces of the different hilt components. The intefaces of the grip scales with the visible parts of the tang AND the guard AND the pommel. While the pommel and guard must ALSO each interface perfectly with the visible tang surfaces. And then there are those points where the pommel and scales and tang meet. Same with the guard and scales and tang. Wow - the seemingly simple hilt becomes a potential fit and finish nightmare with less than excellent crafts-men and -women.

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PostPosted: Sat 12 Aug, 2006 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Someday one will end up in the classifieds.
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Aug, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
Someday one will end up in the classifieds.

One can hope, but Albion only has 100 of these in the pipeline, so it might be awhile.

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
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Brian M




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Aug, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I didn't expect to like this model from the sketches, but I have to say you pulled it off nicely. The tubular rivets are a really nice touch.
Probably won't get it as it lies outside my interests, but complements on a nice-looking sword.

Brian M
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Alex Oster




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 5:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was just thinking today how a few "in process" pictures demonstrating the hilt construction would be really interesting. I was tryingto picture how it all came together and was pinned by the lug. Maybe I should just fly over, buy one, and (like a giddy new father) watch Albion give birth to it... lol.
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 7:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You know, awesome as the Meister is - and it is awesome, indeed - mainly this just makes me even more impatient to see the Knecht. Big Grin
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
You know, awesome as the Meister is - and it is awesome, indeed - mainly this just makes me even more impatient to see the Knecht. Big Grin


Agreed!
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I kick myself each time this topic gets bumped for not having the means to snag that prototype. It's awesome.
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