[J. Bedell]

Once the bodkin is flattened that should also give better penetration. Isn't it great to have a friend that can help you out with this kind of stuff!

Armor would be made of a good quality steel, I don't know how it compares to cast iron but I'm sure they will be at least somewhat different in terms of how easily they are penetrated. After all, armour is made to protect from heavy blows and projectiles, while pig cooker lids usually aren't.

Thimo, I really think this is awesome that you are so willing and able to do these tests. It is absolutely fascinating to read your results. Thanks a lot for sharing with us and letting us be apart of this.

-James

p.s. I can't wait till you do some tests with repro. shields and mail!...and swords too!

[Thimo Savbotta]

Thanks alot James. i really enjoy this stuff as well.



I ended up switching to my 130# elm, before I got any reall deapth.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/A-1-Heavy-2.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/8-Junebowz-1.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/6-Junebowz-2.jpg


and here's the latest damage. Now I'm certain I want to carry this on to the real McCoy.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01-BOT-1.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01-BOT-2.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01-BOT-3.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01-BOT-4.jpg

[Thimo Savbotta]

I hit the metal as hard as I can with an axe to see the strength of it.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01-Axeslam-1.jpg


here is a video of me hitting it

http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosa...t=slam.flv

[J. Bedell]

Wow, that really did some damage. Hmm it did even more damage than an axe (if you measure by how far it penetrated) that's very interesting. I wonder how it will do at longer ranges. Have you tried different angles or just straight on? Can't wait to see it against armor, it seems like mail would be no problem for it and it may even pierce plate!

That's a nice bow youv'e made, I'm impressed. I think I may try making a bow myself...

-James

[Thimo Savbotta]

Thanks alot James.

Metal was 1/32". Not sure what that eguals in Milimeters?

[Jeremy V. Krause]

Hello Thimo,

It is cool to read about your experiments. Do you find your own trees/saplings for your bows? What do you use for a bowstring? If it is daecron have you considered developing and using authentic bowstring material. I don't know it they would be a plant or animal product- I am really rather ignorant of historic missle weapons- I just know that what is available commercially is, as a whole, rather poor.
Jeremy

[Thimo Savbotta]

Yes I locate and cut all my own wood. I live just outside the Great Dismal Swamp and worked as a part of the clean-up crew 3 years ago following a bad hurricane. I located some really dense elm. The wood when seasoned will sink in water. American elm.

I still go out rather frequently and gather or at least mark trees for the winter cutt.

My strings are made out of 18 strands of 80# Spiderwire fishing line. Same materials flightshooters use on their bows. It allows the bow to do alot more work as it's stretching properties are virtually nil.

Yes alot of commercially available bows are not too good. But there are some exceptions I am sure. I've never bought a bow since age 13 when bought an old Fred-Bear Kodiak recurve 65#. I had always wanted a real longbow, as in all wood. And just started reading alot about bows and bowyering and putting the research to the test.

Thanks guys

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

The shape of your bodkin more closely resembles a crossbow quarrel (bolt) head, rather than something designed to be shot from a longbow. War crossbows generally have a much higher draw weight than any longbow, which could explain why you're having better luck with penetration at the higher draw weight bow.

You really should look at trying a head with a more appropriate shape, that of a long tapered spike, rather than the blunt "pile" point of the point you have. I believe you'll have much better luck.

To a large degree, for penetration tests to have value, one must use an appropriate combination of equipment, as every element affects the equation.

[Randall Moffett]

I have a scan of some arrow heads recreated by the Royal Armoury if you want. Send me your email and I can send the picture. I think 1/32 is fairly low thickness for armour. 1/16 would be closer but in fairness if the arrow can penetrate completely then 1/16 will be a fun test.

We should be careful assuming all armour is steel. It varies from place to place and only in a few places like north italy do you get high quality steels that are heat treated. Even in italy there are lots of examples of low carbon steels but granted as time goes on in the 15th iron becomes less and less form the samples chosen. OUtside of italy german armour mostly is low carbon steel and has a good percent of iron as to a lesser extent the rest of europe. There are some very suprising pieces of late 15th armour made entirely of iron! I think that there appears to be a correlation between better armour and it being steel in the 15th italian armour but it comes solely from the KNight and the Blast furnace stat's (but as far as I know its the only tested articles).

RPM

[Thimo Savbotta]

Here are some pics of the same arrow head sharpened. Somewhere I have pics of the historical bodkin type this is designed after. I'll go through my files. The needle type i'm getting for the maile. But you are correct on the thin long ones being used on armour. This type is made to slam in like a chisle and open things right up. Plus the blunt force injury is greater as well as there is alot of weight. Warbows are designed for this type of weight. A 130# bow will snap a normally spined arrow, Ive personally done it numerous times before I began making my own. And you will be very let down trying to shoot an arrow this heavy outt of a normal 50-70# bow. It is like shooting a spear from a slingshot. But with a heavybow you can send something this heavy still 240 yards and often beyond. Better archers have reached way past that.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/probod-2.jpg


This is my friends arrow in Europe. He shoots the same kind of bows and has been involved in some armour tests as well.

http://sweb.cz/RobertNowak/hpim1114.jpg

[Thimo Savbotta]

I stand corrected. Yes, the orriginal shape of this style bodkin can work on a cross-bow bolt. For use on an arrow one must thin down the profile and the tip. I'm hopeing to be able to share some of my files and stuff here in a few.

[Geoff Wood]

[J. Bedell]

That is rather thin for armor, but considering the arrow penetrated what appears to be several inches I would believe that it would penetrate at least an inch or so into armor. Mail it should bust through, although a "spike" bodkin would be much better against mail. This type of bodkin is used for crossbows and heavy longbows. The crossbow version is just much bulkier I believe, of course I may be mistaken.

-James

[Randall Moffett]

There is supposed to be a type of bodkin that is not as long as the 'anti-mail' type that is shorter and squatter very similar to a chisel headbut it had four sides.

I have looked a a few historic pieces of armour for thicknesses. If you want any help I can give you some numbers I have recorded.

Randall

[Thimo Savbotta]

Randall. I would really appreciate that. Thankyou.

[Thimo Savbotta]

Just did some plywood tests with foam board 8" behind. This will give me a bit of an idea how it might preform against a rawhide backed sheild.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/trushot-2.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/trushot-1.jpg

[J. Bedell]

I think you will find that a rawhide covered shield will be much stronger than plywood. Nice pics though, that penetrated pretty far, what range was that at?

-James

[Jean Thibodeau]

Thimo;

Just a short comment to repeat that I very much appreciate your posts and participation in this forum and look forward to your tests.