[Thimo Savbotta]

here is a video

http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosa...gascan.flv

[Thimo Savbotta]

The gas can was shot with a 90# elm longbow. Arrow was 1/2" diam oak shaft 35" L, with 600 grain bodkin.

here is a wood table, being shot with a 115# flat elm bow, same arrow,

http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosa...ecrush.flv

[Thimo Savbotta]

And here is a vid of how I flesh out a war bow. I use and adze and then various rasps and scrapers at the end. The wood is elm


http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosa...=adze2.flv

[Thimo Savbotta]

R Smith, I'm sorry I missed your post earlier. Thanks a million for those links, I really appreciate that very much.

[R Smith]

No problem at all, Thimo. I hope that this helps you out. I will take a look a your video links after I download the software. I think it is great that you are trying these experiments with period weight longbows. I personally have never shot a longbow of these weights nor will I ever due to the fact that I can not put the time in to practicing with it that is necessary to avoid damaging muscles, tendons, and ligaments. My own longbow only has a 60lb draw which is enough for everything except this sort of research. I will watch you experiments with interest. Thanks for sharing with all of us. It is appreciated.

Regards,

Ryan

[Thimo Savbotta]

Again thanks R. Smith.

I grew up shooting bows but not until tis past year have I attempted this sort of thing. 60# is plenty on a longbow. The vast majority of elbs even in the days of Nydam were about that weight. It would feed ones family as well as down a Bezerker. LOL

It wasn't until the introduction of better body armour that the warbow even became such a big deal. But I can see why it was nessessary now after testing various bows and draw weights against certain hard surfaces. Before building and shooting my 1st 90# bow the heaviest I had was 75#. and the arrows were not tipped with bodkins, but feild points. Arrows shattered into peices when hitting any type of thick meteal, i.e. charcoal-grill lids, snow shavels ect.

Once I crossed into the 90's and above and made my 1st medeival war-arrows with bodkins, things took an very dramatic turn. At 1st is was just for kicks, as it surprised me as much as those who watched it. Then I started hearing from guys who said what I was doing was no big deal. And in all honesty they are right. It wasn't supposed to be. It was just for kicks and grins. I began hearing more and more that it wouldn't prove a thing until I shot at something "challengeing" like maile and armour.

Well the fun part is now I'm evolving even more into my appreciation of the Medeival age, which in the past ended at Vikings but was more geared too the Guals and early Celts. So in short I'm truely enjoying reading all the really cool and interestingly informative stuff here on this site.


Now a question. Here is a pic from the link you sent me. Would this be appropriate padding under maile?

http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/bojowe/jack1m.jpg

http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/ikony/jackchains1.jpg

[Thimo Savbotta]

Ok. I still would love to hear from any of you who know a bit about sheild construction circa 12th century. I've researched this a bit and find many were made of 1/2"T birtch planks and reenforced front and back with layers of thick rawhide. Would any type of iron plateing be involved in the construction.

Again I'm looking no for what the average joe would have been given but what ...lets say and important Lord would have carried.

Thanks so much people.

[R Smith]

The pictures are of a jack. This would have been worn by itself and in combination with the jack chains which are shown in the armour section of Matuls site. It is generally made of 30 or so layers of linen which would be great protection against most anything thrown at it.
The 12th/ 13th century aketon and the 14th century aketon would have been what was worn under the maille.

[J. Bedell]

Thimo,
Those pictures are of Jacks. While jacks can be worn under mail they are usually used as the actual armor, not padding under it. The aketons on that website are better for wearing under mail. A jack is made of several (20-30) layers of linen or canvas. An aketon or gambeson is made of a material (cotton is usually used in modern reproductions) that is packed densely between layers of cloth. For the era you are looking for a gambeson under mail would be best, or for earlier (Viking age) just a stout woolen shirt under mail would also be appropriate.

I believe the only steel reinforcement on shields of that era is a center boss and maybe a steel rim around it the perimeter of the shield.

Hope this helps you out!
-James

edit: Sorry to repeat what R. Smith said, he must have posted as I was typing because I didn't see it before I posted. Sorry again.

[Elling Polden]

Written sources state that the minimum shield for a norwegian levy would have three iron bands across the front.
The phrasing and context, however, indicates that this was seen as inferior to the hide covered shields.

[Thimo Savbotta]

Chad, I just realised on 2nd reading I may have appeared a tad rude and uncivil. Heck it was rude. and I appologise.

I'll place a bit of the blame on premeditated-paranoia. I was informed before comeing here that I may be treated as a pest for inquireing into the theme I'm interested in.

Again I appologise to any who have felt I was being didrespectful.


To be honest I'm looking forward to getting these tests done, so as to move on to learning more about swords and their various uses.

Sincerly
Thimo

[Thimo Savbotta]

Lets leave off arrows for the moment.

How well doe's the linen padding an various layers protect one from the blow of a heavy sword. I understand the materials are made to keep one from loosing blood or worse a limb, but would not the blunt force trauma be fairly severe???

I also believe it would be of utmost benifit to avoid being struck at all and that ones defensive and offenseive startagies should be of highest skill. But lets say you are surrounded and are struck rather hard from behind on the shoulder, for instance. Would these coats be good protection in that area????


Sorry if these questions are redundant or silly. This is a whole new area of study for me. And very fasinateing to say the least.

[Chad Arnow]

[Chad Arnow]

Mail and padded defenses would offer some protection against blunt force trauma, but they seem to have been better at preventing cuts and stabs than broken bones. I know tests have been conducted about how multiple layers of fabric can resist cuts and piercings. You'll probably still feel the wallop though.

[Patrick Kelly]

Thimo,

One thing to consider is, not only what kind of materials will be tested, but how that testing will occur. Over the years we've seen quite a few tests like this, as well as sword tesing, where an item is simply hung on a post and chopped or shot at, etc. These kinds of tests have a very limited value as the test samples need to be subject to an environment that is as realistic as possible. I don't think you're going to have any volunteers waiting in line to be shot at. However, you seem to be serious about your intent and I'd hate to see your work invalidated because of issues like this. Putting as much thought into the testing procedures as well as the materials tested is probably a good idea. Good luck and I'm eager to see your results.

Multiple layers of padded undergarments don't seem to have been worn in your period of interest. This is uncertain but there's no real concrete evidence of things like gambesons being worn beneath mail pre-12th century. This is something to consider if you're representing a specific time frame. Padded undergarments do make mail far more effective as a body defense, so modern logic might assume that they were worn. However, there is no clear documentation supporting its use in this period. Unfortunately documetation on such things between the post-roman era and the crusading period is sketchy at best.

[Thimo Savbotta]

No. No hanging from posts. I'll be dressing pig carcasses as well as a faux-human torso filled with balistics gel. And this will all be done with witnesses present who are from both areas of study. I want to learn how one would dress from underwear to cape if need be. And I want every layer to be tested. Beginning first with full armour then working down in successive layers. I realize its a rather big task to undertake, but it has sort of come about of it's own accord, and now I've committed myself. If it takes a year to put it all in order I'm still committed. I need as much research time as possible as this will potentially be covered by a documentary team.

This is no Myth-Busters foolishness. I'm after something as authentic and as educational in these feilds of study as could possibly be.

[Patrick Kelly]

Sounds good.

One thing you might want to think about is doing something to impart movement to the test target. Put it on a rail system, some kind of spring loaded stand, etc. Real people wearing this stuff weren't going to stand there flat-footed and let you shoot them. They'd be moving, either running, dodging, riding on horseback, etc. The movement of the target can add a realistic and very critical element to the testing procedure. This is something I've seen lacking in nearly every test like this.

[Thimo Savbotta]

Yes. I had not considered that, not the movement issue. I had thought about making it so that impact would move the target, but hadn't figured out how yet. This is an awsome idea. I'd like to do both. Make the target mobile and able to twist or lean with the impact of the shots. Thanks for the creative visual tips.

[Thimo Savbotta]

Here is something my friend in the Czec-republic just sent me. Bless his soul. It is rather interesting and i thought I'd share it here.

"Thimo, Gerald of wales is one of most reputed chronicle liars you can actually find amongst mediavall scholars.
Other stuff is hastilly razzle dazzle of various, sometimes outdated and non confirmed informations with not much of real value.

You should forget internet and start to read Hugh Soar books and get Robert Hardy and Mathew Strickland "The great warbow" book.

Only some of mediaval armour was made out of wrought iron, which itself might be sometimes interesting mixture it has no magickall properties.
But in 15. century steel armour was produced and that hardened one as you can see on some damaged armours in Wallace collection, which is cracked rather than beat out of shape.
When wrough iron was used, it was commonly case hardened, which makes very good and very hard to shot through armour because of outer hard shell and inner softer layer.
As written in recent article in "The glade", Mark Stretton was able to shoot through mediaval quality wrought iron hot rolled plate 2 mm in thickness with good succes, but when shooting at 1,6 mm higher quality breastplate such as we used for show, only bows of italian yew with extreamly good cast and weight around 120# with 120 gram arrow and specific arrowhead do beat the armour at high succes rate. (85%)
Lighter bow and arrow has some difficulty to do that all the time and succes in 15-20% of shots is more viable.

I dont believe that frontal shot at quality breastplate, particulary Milanese style or other modern late 15. century or a descend on a quality helmet will provide you a clean penetration regardless the bow and arrow, altough a significant shock, unconsiousness or/and blunt trauma might (will) follow)."

Jaro

[Phill Lappin]