[Sean Flynt]

I would urge you to get a copy of the book The Great Warbow if you don't already have it. Also, the book Celtic Warriors has a color plate showing a Welsh ambush of a Norman cavalryman. IIRC, that book also has an early drawing of a Welsh bowman. For some unknown reason, one of his feet is bare. He wears a simple tunic and has a hairstyle I always think of as "The Beavis" (although maybe I should update that to "The Crocket" now that Miami Vice has carried the look to the silver screen).

[Thimo Savbotta]

Yes I am at the moment waiting for the 1st book you mention to arrive by post. The 2nd book I'll check with my local library 1st. Thanks.

The Beevis. LOL. I love it.

[Valeriy Rog]

May be I'm wrong but aren't welsh of celtic origin? Celts fought naked only with spears and shields drabbled in calcareous earth and made hedgehog-like hair %)

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Thimo Savbotta]

http://www.taoc.co.uk/content/view/98/47/





Welsh Longbowman 1121-1415 | Print |

The Welsh were famed for being superlative archers and were masters of guerrilla warfare and the ambuscade. Like their English allies they too made their mark in the Hundred Years War.

[Thimo Savbotta]

Here also is some interesting data.


The effects of a longbow are illustrated by this 12th century account by Gerald of Wales:
...in the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuises, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal. (Itinerarium Cambriae, (1191


Origins
In the British Isles the weapon was first recorded as being used by the Welsh in AD 633, when Offrid, the son of Edwin, king of Northumbria, was killed by an arrow shot from a Welsh longbow during a battle between the Welsh and the Mercians — more than five centuries before any record of its military use in England. Despite this, the weapon is more commonly known as the "English longbow" than the "Welsh longbow".

[Carl Scholer]

I hate to disagree but I think the weapons the Welsh were using were actually something different than the longbow. The Welsh were described as using short bows made of elm, heres the qoute from Foster and Hoare, in The Historical Works of Giraldus Cambrensis in the late 12th century describing the Welsh bows:

"Yet the bows used by these people (the Venta) are not made of horn, ivory, or yew, but of wild elm; unpolished, rude and uncouth, but stout; not calculated to shoot an arrow to a great distance, but to inflict very severe wounds in a close fight."

The earliest discovery of longbows in England date back to 2000BC IIRC, and the earliest in Europe date back even further. Utsie(sp?) the iceman had a longbow. Their are also bows found in Nydam Denmark that are made of Yew and are 2m long which date to the late 4th century AD.

Currently it is believed that either the longbow never left England or that it was reintroduced from Scandinavia, where their is evidence of continued longbow use, by the Danish Vikings.

Here's a link:

http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow2.html

[Thimo Savbotta]

Carl I am in total agreement. As yet there have been not one surviving exsample of the "Welsh" bow unearthed. I have made both types. The shorter uncouth version and the longbow, both out of high desity elm. Acctually the flat shorter bow is my hardest hitter at 115#

Here is the excerpt you have taken your info from in it's entirety:

"Morris, reading about the Norman-Venta encounters, misinterpreted a key passage of The Itinery Triugh Wales:
"Especially we get from Gerald (Gerald de Barri or Giraldus Cambrensis) a valuable picture of the archers of Gwent, with their 'bows made of wild elm, unpolished, rude and uncouth, not only calculated to shoot an arrow to a great distance, but also to inflict very severe wounds in a close fight'."76
The correct translation of this passage according to Foster and Hoare, The Historical Works of Giraldus Cambrensis, should be: "Yet the bows used by these people (the Venta) are not made of horn, ivory, or yew, but of wild elm; unpolished, rude and uncouth, but stout; not calculated to shoot an arrow to a great distance, but to inflict very severe wounds in a close fight."77
Therefore, the twelfth century Welsh weapon could not be a longbow. It did not have the range of a longbow, nor does Cambrensis mention any extraordinary length. The bow of Cambrensis' England was the short Norman bow. Surely an astute observer such as the Archdeacon would not have failed to notice the most obvious difference between a continental and a longbow.
It is now apparent that the longbow was already in England during the time of Edward I. Edward simply adopted the longbow because it was superior in range and equally as powerful as the Welsh bow. But as Morris and Oman pointed out, the catalysis for the use of the longbow was found in Wales.78 "

There is much debate still as to what type of bow it was. That is why I've designed and built both. Either elb or flat makes a heavy hitting bow. But I am inclined to believe,; due to the fact these guys were guerrila war specialist and most likely forest snipers; that is may very well have been the shorter flat bow.


I also have built 6 bows based on the Nydam collection. I have all the photo plates supplied me by the museum as well as some close-ups given me by a a fellow Slav. Bowyer who has been granted handeling access to the remains. These bow at Nydam are of Germanic orgin and built pretty much like the ones recovered from the Mary-Rose ship. The heaviest one was speculated to pull around 90# and the majority 60-70#. I researched and built those bows just prior too my interest in the warbow design. My first love though is in Neolithic European bows-Iron age.

[Sean Flynt]

Man, you're going to love The Great Warbow There's a whole section on the Welsh Bow. IIRC, the authors conclude that the "short" bow is a myth. I could be mis-remembering, though, as it was my intro to the subject and this is not a subject of serious study for me.

[Thimo Savbotta]

Yes. It is all up for valid debate.

I begaan a thread on a bowyering site in regards to the famed Welsh bow nearly a year ago. But the debate as most are, was nearly all conducted with bias veiws from the 2 very sepperate camps of thought.

The traditional English longbow enthusiast will vehlemently argue that it just had to be a longbow/warbow to inflict such recorded damage. But many of these people are also very "English" natiionalistic in thought, and will fight tooth and nail over what they have come to veiw as "their" bow. The ELB that is, and the Elb warbow in particular.

The other side of the coin is the flatbow enthusist. They are constatly at odd s with the English crowd. Most of the flat bow types if not all are from the United states, and they beileive somehow, that the flat bow is not only yhe best design, but also "American". And that is true, Native-American that is.

So these two sides love too argue and debate who's bow is best. I myself just like making and shooting them. Hence these tests I've decides to conduct.

I want to shoot both designs at armor and maile. And let the results speak for themselves. I'm useing elm for both flat and elb. (I was told by several English yew enthusist that elm was a poor choice for a warbow with rounded bell) but I've made well over 10 now and each is supperb in both designs.

So the tests will involve long distance and close combat conditions.

The whole reason I ended up at this site was to research as much as possible on the armour and maille. I'm reading alot of stuff here and it is WAY-COOL. So regardless of the outcome of my testing. I'm hooked on the site.

Man! there are just some amazingly talented people here. WOW!!!!!

[Thimo Savbotta]

Let me clarify one thing i said above:

In regards to the "American" flatbow. Yes Native Americans used such a design. But the origins of either flat or rounded belly bows can be found in Neolithic Europe. Atleast we have the ony preserved models of either design, thanks mostly too the peat bogs. With the recent exception of burials unearthed near Stonehenge and of coure the IceMan, Otzi.

But back to the original question. I'm concerned only at this point in the evolution of the bow in regards to organized warfare, particularly in Medeival Europe, and specifically the Welsh Archers.

I'd like to ask again: What would be the utmost in sheild tec. at the time of the 12th century. Arrow proofing to the best of Medeival capabilities, that is.


Thanks so much everyone for the wonderful responses.

[R Smith]

[Thimo Savbotta]

The quote above is not from me. It was Geral-of-Wales a witness and chronicler of the said damage.


But some say he was a great exagerater. Still others of the time period have written similar events.

But that is what I'm on this site for. I want you guys expert opinions on the capabilities of maile and armour against arrows shot from extreamly heavy nbows with heavy-grain shafts and bodkins.

I have witnessed a friend of mine already send an arrow out of a 115# longbow through maile, gambelston-padding and pig carcass that was wearing it. But it was on video out of Czec-Republic. He had more than a few who doubted the qualities of the protective gear.

I seek to do my tests in front of witnessess respected in the fields of both warbowa as well as armour.

I just need your honest opinions and expertise on these matters. Keep shareing guys. All sides are welcome and accepted on this challenge.

Thanks again

Thimo

[Dan Howard]

[Thimo Savbotta]

Like I said there are many who say Gerald was a great exagerater. I haven't the pleasure of meeting the man yet, so I will not pass judgement.

So the good news is I'm hearing that two layers of expert-quality maille will stop and arrow????

Wonderful news. That's what I'm seeking to discover.

I guess horses saddlles, a man's thigh clad in padding and a horse are not that big of deal on the penetration scale. So that answers my questions on heavy-guage-leather already.

[R Smith]

With proper padding it should stop most of the penetration of an arrow.

[Thimo Savbotta]

PLEASEEEEEEE!!!!


What is theeeeee proper padding???????? of the 12th century????? LOL



thanks Thimo

[R Smith]

Here are a couple of links that show modern reproductions and some period examples from manuscripts.

This is a home made set and some manuscript pictures.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewto...ht=#796103


In the next link look under the arming clothes section which shows "padded hose" as well as a variety of quality reproductions of period gambeson/ aketon/ pourpoint.

http://www.matuls.pl/english/english.html

I have some other pictures but I am unable or unwilling to learn how to post pictures on this site.

[Chad Arnow]

[Thimo Savbotta]

Lets try helping me discover what would be the best arrow protection.


Or is there really any?


I've stated this very early on. I am not looking for an easy task here. I'm not going to allow myself to doubt that what I seek too do can be done. That would be psychologicaly counterproductive. But I'm not one who will be devistated ego wise if I fail at these up and coming tests.

The easy way out is to get something that in faux appearence would look jim-crakin-dandy as it gets skewered. I've already penetrated tempered steel shovel heads and 2" seasoned cross-cut oak planks, among numerous other fun things. Now I want to do something historicaly accurate. I would sure appreciate some help. As armour is defineatly not my area of expertise.

Thanks again everyone.

sincerlly
Thimo