| Author |
Message |
Dan Howard
|
 Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| George Hill wrote: | | To the Rapier, Almost certainly. It rather depends on how thick the passing is, but generally it's not hard to shove a large needle through thick cloth. But yes, the adverage soldier generally wants to take off his enemy's arm or head. This brings us back to the one handed cutting sword and it's infinite individual types, or the longsword. |
Rapiers are not needles. A padded jack or even a gambeson would have no trouble withstanding a rapier thrust. The wearing of padding during duels was outlawed for that very reason.
|
|
  |
 |
Steve Grisetti
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Risto Rautiainen wrote: | Vladimir Cervenka does similar swords, although I hear he has a terribly long backlog.
http://www.sword.cz/eindex.htm
Excellent customer service though. |
Long backlog is a potential issue with other custom smiths, as well, including these fine craftsmen mentioned by Gabriel Lebec:
| Gabriel Lebec wrote: | | … Custom smiths such as Vince Evans, Patrick Bárta, and Peter Johnsson, or custom cutlers like Erik Stevenson…. |
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
|
|
|
|
|
|
George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Dan Howard wrote: | | George Hill wrote: | | To the Rapier, Almost certainly. It rather depends on how thick the passing is, but generally it's not hard to shove a large needle through thick cloth. But yes, the adverage soldier generally wants to take off his enemy's arm or head. This brings us back to the one handed cutting sword and it's infinite individual types, or the longsword. |
Rapiers are not needles. A padded jack or even a gambeson would have no trouble withstanding a rapier thrust. The wearing of padding during duels was outlawed for that very reason. |
Truely? I am rather suprised. Have you done tests which reflect this with good replicas?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
|
|
  |
|
Dan Howard
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| George Hill wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | George Hill wrote: | | To the Rapier, Almost certainly. It rather depends on how thick the passing is, but generally it's not hard to shove a large needle through thick cloth. But yes, the adverage soldier generally wants to take off his enemy's arm or head. This brings us back to the one handed cutting sword and it's infinite individual types, or the longsword. |
Rapiers are not needles. A padded jack or even a gambeson would have no trouble withstanding a rapier thrust. The wearing of padding during duels was outlawed for that very reason. |
Truely? I am rather suprised. Have you done tests which reflect this with good replicas? |
I've done tests with a wide variety of daggers, many with tips more acute than a rapier (including a stiletto) and few even came close to penetrating a 20 layer jack (linen canvass with each layer rotated 45 degrees and the rows of stitching were about 3/4 inches apart). Some thrusts involved placing the offhand on the rondel to enable a two-handed overarm thrust. The only thrust that managed to penetrate far enough to seriously injure the wearer was when the target was placed on the floor and we dropped onto it with the dagger so that the entire body weight was behind it. There is no way that a rapier could be thrust with as much energy as that put behind some of the dagger thrusts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Felix Wang
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
There have been a number of mentions of longswords in this thread; these are probably not the most typical swords for the Conquistadors. They were not predominantly knights or men at arms, but the main number of soldiers were infantrymen, carrying sword and shield, crossbow, or arquebus. For these men, a single-handed sword would have been the usual sidearm. A side-sword like the Serenissima would be very typical. A few might have had longer rapiers; but the rapier is not an ideal battlefield weapon; shorter weapons that cut and thrust equally well have historically been more popular among the rank and file.
|
|
|
|
|
|
E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For starts, get ahold of Petersen's "Arms and Armor in Colonial America". There's a chapter on swords, and as I recall, it begins with some Spanish pieces. The chapter on Armor has some photos taken in the Real Armeria, and the swords shown with the armor are reasonably visible, so you can get an idea of what they are.
I used to have a book on the Conquistadors, and on the cover was a photo of Pizarro's sword which was in a Spanish museum. I bet a photo of it is out there somewhere!
--ElJay
|
|
 |
|
|
E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Found it! I entered "Pizarro sword" in Google's Image search. It's the one on the www.humanities-interactive.org site. You'll also find a bunch of photos of reproductions of this sword, most of which aren't too great!
--ElJay
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
|
 |
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
James;
I still think that A & A would be the best place to try: Write them an E-Mail and maybe they can suggest a sword type that would fit what you are looking for.
The Serenissima Rapier is very close to what you are looking for but a modified version with a slightly wider blade like the
Cavelier Rapier or even the Dresden rapier. This would be more a cut and thrust blade with a rapier hilt suitable for combat more than civilian duelling.
Obviously the design would still have to be balanced physically as well as aesthetically and historically accurate. You might expand your search to armour like a Morion helm and period appropriate half armour.
One example of which: http://www.varmouries.com/ren_03.html Peascod Breastplate
landsknecht armour of about the same period: http://www.varmouries.com/vcat_10.html
Here is an inexpensive version of a Morion: http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/r8102combmorionhelm.htm
As with swords there is a wide quality / price range from cheap to VERY expensive suppliers of armour varying in authenticity and quality of materials.
Just more way to go broke.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's unfortunate that there are not many other custom makers that are taking comissions for compound-hilted swords like this. Your choices are, unfortunately, extremely limited.
One possible option would be to consider talking with EB Erickson regarding a custom hilt. I'd first have a blade made by a maker and then send it to him for the cutlery services. He's a fantastic maker and a person who understands swords from the unique standpoint of a person who has handled many antiques. Unfortunately, he does have a backlog and so it would not be possible to get a piece from him any time soon.
Have you considered looking at auctions such as Czerny's or Hermann Historica for antiques?
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
|
|
|
|
|
|
George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Obviously the design would still have to be balanced physically as well as aesthetically and historically accurate. You might expand your search to armour like a Morion helm and period appropriate half armour.
|
How popular was the Morion with the Spainish of the period? I've heard that huge numbers of morions in Spainish armys are more of a popular image then an actual fact. What is the truth?
Dan, I suppose I have no choice but to beleive you with those tests. Most interisting. How did you have jack rigged for striking?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
|
|
|
|
|
|
James Martin
Location: Hutto, TX Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 26
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wow thanks guys for all your input. Here is how I feel so far....
After looking through a few books at the UT Austin Library, the style of the A&A Serenissima Rapier is exactly the kind of sword the conquistadors would have carried and if you look at Pizarros sword (thank you by the way for posting that image Nathan) it is very similar to the Serenissima. That being said I am currently talking to a fellow who can sell me an authentic sword of this type and as such I am focused on this. However, I am still interested in a good quality replica that I could use for "play" and maybe some test cutting as well as seeking training in historical use of the side-sword. To this end, I will probably wind up buying the Serenissima but you can believe it will not be for a looooong time if I can get the antique sword. (I am working on the wife already wish me luck!  )
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 10:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| George Hill wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Obviously the design would still have to be balanced physically as well as aesthetically and historically accurate. You might expand your search to armour like a Morion helm and period appropriate half armour.
|
How popular was the Morion with the Spanish of the period? I've heard that huge numbers of morions in Spainish armys are more of a popular image then an actual fact. What is the truth?
Dan, I suppose I have no choice but to beleive you with those tests. Most interisting. How did you have jack rigged for striking? |
What I think is the myth is that this was a helmet used only or mostly by the Spanish: I think it was a very popular international style but " pirate " movies of the 1930 and 1940 era created that impression. The Cabasset and the Morion-Cabasset were also popular. Around 1515 I would think the Sallet and Kettle Hats were very much still in use.
There might be records of what the Cortez expedition had as general " munitions " armour to issue to expedition members whose work wasn't primarily fighting like a Blacksmith or carpenter etc ..... Gentlemen may have supplied their own equipment. Considering the small numbers of men in such an expedition I assume that all would be expected to fight or at least be equipped to fight in an emergency.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
|
James Martin
Location: Hutto, TX Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 26
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Also I forgot to mention that as I was going through the 1907 Spanish Arms and Armor book it mentioned that the Madrid Armory also had a hand and a half sword that also belonged to Cortes but unfortunatley there was not a picture. So I guess a few of the Conquistadors probably carried some of the bigger swords though I think the side swords would have been most prevalent.
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| James Martin wrote: | | Also I forgot to mention that as I was going through the 1907 Spanish Arms and Armor book it mentioned that the Madrid Armory also had a hand and a half sword that also belonged to Cortes but unfortunately there was not a picture. So I guess a few of the Conquistadors probably carried some of the bigger swords though I think the side swords would have been most prevalent. |
What you carry around every day and what you choose to carry when you KNOW you are going to be in a fight might be different. You might also have your side sword on your belt and grab a large hand and a half sword as your primary weapon.
In many ways a side sword is like carrying a .45 auto ( Assuming you are in a legal position to do so. ) just in case and carrying an assault rifle in a very hot zone.
Buying antiques is a whole different level of " buyer " beware: There are really good fakes and dishonest people, there are also honest mistakes where 19th century reproductions are mistakenly believed to be older original swords even by Museum curators who should know better. Some genuine antiques were, at one time, believed to be good fakes !
Just be sure to get some decent background information about the sword and the seller and some expert impartial advice before parting with a large sum of cash: A genuine antique should be expensive or may be a very good fake ?
A cheap but genuine original antique sword is a rarity I think ! Bargains are always possible, but if it's too good to be true maybe it is.
Anyway, this is not my area of expertise just that buying an original would make me nervous.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Don Stanko
|
| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes Jean, I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately it is hard to tell the difference between a victorian copy and the real deal. However, I believe the sword James is looking at purchasing is a good one. Heres a picture of it.
Don
 Attachment: 58.99 KB
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Don Stanko wrote: | Yes Jean, I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately it is hard to tell the difference between a victorian copy and the real deal. However, I believe the sword James is looking at purchasing is a good one. Heres a picture of it.
Don |
Oh, I'm not giving James advice about the specific sword he is looking at and I am not qualified to judge authenticity myself. At best I might be able to spot an obvious fake or Victorian reproduction or at least have suspicions about one.
Just giving him the advice to get qualified second or third opinions.
It much easier for me to have an opinion about modern reproductions and the sources that I know would give good quality as real swords at various price points.
The getting of an original or a reproduction serves related but different purposes: A true piece of history that need to be cared for with respect or a reproduction that can be " played with " learning handling or cutting or just understanding the design subtleties of real swords. With an original one is learning with the real thing in hand. With a reproduction one is learning something useful only if the reproduction is accurate enough in all it's physical characteristics i.e. A badly balanced wall hanger, even if attractive, won't teach you anything about real swords. Attractive wall hangers or well designed fantasy designs can also have their place ! It depends on one objectives or interests.
Anyway, I'm getting verbose again and maybe off topic ........ OOOOOOPS.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
Bob Burns
|
| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just a short note on rapiers and cutting. Although it is very true most rapiers are designed mostly or solely for the thrust, although there are cut and thrust rapiers but still they are primarily thrusting swords.
However, I have the Arms & Armor Three Ring Italian Rapier which is 7/8 at the quillon, mine in particular is a stiff thrusting rapier. Yet, I can cut milk jugs and heavier detergent jugs full of water all day long with my rapier. Not halfway through, or mostly through, all the way through and yes I do mean cutting these jugs in half. Milk jugs, I can use this rapier to cut the same jug say 3 times, starting at the top of the jug. I am going to have my wife photograph me doing this and will post pictures as soon as this is done.
Sincerely,
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Craig Peters
|
| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bob Burns wrote: | Just a short note on rapiers and cutting. Although it is very true most rapiers are designed mostly or solely for the thrust, although there are cut and thrust rapiers but still they are primarily thrusting swords.
However, I have the Arms & Armor Three Ring Italian Rapier which is 7/8 at the quillon, mine in particular is a stiff thrusting rapier. Yet, I can cut milk jugs and heavier detergent jugs full of water all day long with my rapier. Not halfway through, or mostly through, all the way through and yes I do mean cutting these jugs in half. Milk jugs, I can use this rapier to cut the same jug say 3 times, starting at the top of the jug. I am going to have my wife photograph me doing this and will post pictures as soon as this is done.
Sincerely,
Bob |
Bob,
While there is a lot of debate about rapiers since historically the terminology was not precise, I would say that cut and thrust sword and side swords are not really the same thing as true rapiers. The other thing is that I don't think milk jugs or even detergent jugs are particularly good indicators of a rapier's capacity to cut. Simply put, they aren't the same as human flesh, and even objects that are not at all made for cutting could probably deal a fair amount of damage to such targets. I'm not saying that a rapier can't lacerate human skin, but other than stinging and hurting like anything, I don't think such a cut will ever be serious. The other thing to consider is that we have sources that cite cases of antique rapiers snapping, and I don't think a rapier blade is well suited to handle the stresses of cutting flesh targets.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic
