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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jul, 2006 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The biggest mistake people seem to make in making historical clothing is using machine produced tight weave fabrics.
Fabrics that are so tight weave that they can only be made by a machine.

I won't name names, but I see mostly people who look like they are dressed up, rather then having stepped out of history. They don't look good in my opinion, and I confess I tend to be rather hesitant about saying so when I think something looks bad. I don't care to hurt feeling and all that.

But I will say this. To make a peice of clothing that looks historically accurete, you need to start with fabrics that look historically accurete.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Jul, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think any purchaser of these items needs to first define their vision of historical accuracy (and for what time period). In the most literal sense, historically accurate clothing would be nearly impossible to get:

Flax for linen would need to be grown in fields not fertilized with modern fertilizers and would need to be harvested with period techniques, not with machines. Ditto for cotton. We'd have to do climatological research so we'd know the temperature and humidity ranges of the time period in question, since there are natural cyclical climate changes the earth goes through regardless of human intervention. We don't want to grow flax in weather different from medieval times, right? We'd also want to make sure any modern air pollutants wouldn't affect the crop's quality.

Wool would need to be harvested using period techniques from sheep fed period feed who are not as scientifically well-bred as they are today. These sheep would need to drink natural well water, not water purified/filtered/added to.

The raw materials would have to be woven into cloth on non-electrically powered looms and the resultant cloth died with organic dyes appropriate for region/time period/social status. Plant-derived dyes would have to be grown in fields fertilized only with fertilizers used in period and harvested and prepared using historical techniques, too. Garments would have to then be made of totally accurate materials with totally accurate tools and techniques, without the benefit even of sewing in artificial light in an air-conditioned room. Artificial lighting might cause your stitches to be more even than candlelight or something. You never know.

Unless techniques and processes like those described above are researched and followed to a "T," you can't truly describe an item as historically accurate, can you?

Of course, many people reading this are thinking "Chad is nuts." True enough, I suppose. While making clothes that way would make them "historically accurate" it would likely make them something else, too: prohibitively expensive. It would also make them hard to find.

So "historical accuracy" as a term is pretty absolute, but pretty unrealistic in many cases. How far you take the term is something else. What George says is correct: even people using historical patterns and non-machine stitching are probably using cloth weaves and dyes that aren't historically accurate.

Every purchaser needs to decide whether they want to be totally historically accurate (nearly impossible) or find some happy medium between modern materials and techniques and historical ones. This applies to weapons, too. The level of compromise people are willing to take is very personal.

For me, I'd want to avoid visible machine stitching and obviously incorrect fabrics and inappropriate colors. But if the fabric is a tighter weave than historical cloth or the color from synthetic chemicals, I'm not going to jump off a bridge. After all, in many cases, this clothing might be under armour.

A decent guide to accuracy is to decide how close someone needs to be to you to realize inaccuracies. The difference in cost between looking accurate from 4-5 feet away vs. under a magnifying glass can be substantial. Does it matter? Depends on who you are.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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Posts: 616

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jul, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Hoin wrote:
Be careful though, they say their aketons are stuffed with cotton, which isn't a period material. Of course, no one is going to reach into your aketon and notice that it is stuffed with cotton, but it is something to keep in mind.


Not true, unless you are portraying Norman or Saxon periods. Egyptian cotton was readily available in southern Europe by the 13thC and was widely used to make "fustian" a cotton-wool blend frequently used in arming clothes and padded garments. Tow was more common for stuffing prior to that time and continued in the economic backwaters of Northern Europe including England and Scotland. Cotton undergarments were readily available even in such places by the late 14th and early 15thC. Cotton was much cheaper than linen for shirts, braes and linings. Indian cotton cloths are a completely different matter economically.

I heartily second the recommendation for Matuls clothing. I'm continue to be impressed by his attention to detail every time I wear garments he made. Not so impressed with the padded coif though. The pattern is a bit small. Well constructed though. Cool
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jul, 2006 7:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Travis Canaday wrote:
whoops...

I guess there are both old and new world cotton producing Gossypium species. So the variety from India was used earlier in Europe. It would have been a very exspensive product.


I don't have sources to hand but my recollection is that woven cotton fabric was rare and expensive but raw cotton was a pretty common import from the east.

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Al.
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jul, 2006 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi George,

George Hill wrote:
The biggest mistake people seem to make in making historical clothing is using machine produced tight weave fabrics.
Fabrics that are so tight weave that they can only be made by a machine.


I'm curious as to what makes you think that tightly woven fabrics can't be produced by hand?

I've personally seen hand-woven fabrics which are incredibly tight and even. It's time-consuming to be sure and takes a lot of practice but it's certainly possible.

--
Al.
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Jessica Finley
Industry Professional



Location: Topeka, Kansas
Joined: 29 Dec 2003

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jul, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
I think any purchaser of these items needs to first define their vision of historical accuracy (and for what time period). In the most literal sense, historically accurate clothing would be nearly impossible to get.


*cheers* Wahoo! Way to go Chad! I am 100% behind you here. *sigh*

Sometimes, you have to go this far to make the point.

There will be inaccuracies. Period. Even if you sew your own, with the right materials, are you using the right techniques? Some stitches were preferred in some time periods and regions, while others were preferred elsewhere. Even if you are stitching your own and using the right material and the right stitch, are you stitching in the same manner (stitches per inch)?

The reality is, that for many people in the latter period, (16th century) their clothes and shoes were made at least in part by specialists. Most people weren't growing the flax, producing the thread, weaving the cloth, dying the fabric, tailoring the outfit, sewing the outfit, embellishing the outfit etc., etc., etc., etc. all on their own, just as most people in period weren't producing swords from mine to scabbard all on their own. Which is why they were able to have magnificent pieces, and for the most part, our attempts to recreate them are close but not-quite. To be reenactors, we have had to, for the most part, resort to making every piece on our own.

And, even so, in period much of this work was not done by hand! Anything they could mechanize, they did.

Eh, preaching to the choir, I know.

Point is, the benefits of doing a project like accurate clothing yourself are:
1. Cheaper
2. You learn more

Negatives are:
1. Time and work intensive
2. You still won't be accurate
3. You might suck at the skill you are attempting to learn, even after putting alot of effort into learning
4. You might hate the skill you are attempting to learn

One thing I have learned is that sometimes, it's worth every single hard-earned penny to pay someone who knows what they are doing for a well-made object. It may seem like an exorbitant amount at first, but I promise you, nobody's getting rich off accurate clothing. Heck, the most accurate clothes I have made to date, I had over 80 hours of embroidery time in the doublets. I had five hours in button making alone. And it still wasn't entirely hand-stitched. *shrug* Just depends on whether or not you want to invest that kind of time, I guess. I could never have charged a reasonable $/hr rate for this, not and have someone pay it. If you were to get even more accurate, the hours invested would simply go up.

SO, I guess what I am saying is if you think you want to learn to be a tailor, seamstress, and embroiderer, then by all means, check it out and make your own. Learn how it was all done. Otherwise, pay someone else, even if it's your Mom, to make you exactly what you want. You'll end up happier in the long run.
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jul, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Al Muckart wrote:
Hi George,
I'm curious as to what makes you think that tightly woven fabrics can't be produced by hand?

I've personally seen hand-woven fabrics which are incredibly tight and even. It's time-consuming to be sure and takes a lot of practice but it's certainly possible.


Tight might be the wrong term, but basically consider this. Take any hand made cloth, or a cloth from a loom, and hold it up to a lightsource. Then take a peice of cloth from say, a tshirt, and hold it up to the same light. The T-shirt cloth looks modern. It has a certain perfection and geometery that doesn't look period in the slightest.

The period cloth might have a thread or two that just seem a touch larger then the rest, or are larger then you see in modern cloth, or any number of slight variations that you don't usually see in say, your fruit of the looms.

And this particularness of cloth is visable at a suprising distance.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi George,

George Hill wrote:

Tight might be the wrong term, but basically consider this. Take any hand made cloth, or a cloth from a loom, and hold it up to a lightsource. Then take a peice of cloth from say, a tshirt, and hold it up to the same light. The T-shirt cloth looks modern. It has a certain perfection and geometery that doesn't look period in the slightest.

The period cloth might have a thread or two that just seem a touch larger then the rest, or are larger then you see in modern cloth, or any number of slight variations that you don't usually see in say, your fruit of the looms.

And this particularness of cloth is visable at a suprising distance.


Ahh. I know what you mean, and for the most part I agree, but I think it's a very dangerous generalisation to say that medieval products are necessarily imperfect because they aren't machine-made, or even that modern products are perfect because they are machine-made Worried

Personally I think that the cut of a garment and the drape of the fabric it is constructed from are far more important factors in whether or not something looks period than whether it is made from machine-woven fabric. Like any skill, expertise in that area (which I leech of the more knowledgeable members of my group as appropriate Big Grin ) takes a long time to master and people have to start somewhere.

These days there is enough information out there that doing the research to make sure your clothing is of a period cut and of roughly the right fabrics, even if the thread-count is a bit out, is almost trivially easy once you have someone to point you in the right direction.

Color is harder, quite a lot of people seem to have really wierd ideas that things like bright colors or colors like pink aren't "period" because they "must come from modern chemical dyes", when they are quite documentable to certain places and times.

As Chad rightly points out, getting absolute historical accuracy is impossible, for instance we have a lot of information on the cut and construction of the Herjolfsnes garments, but there is no fabric made today which really closely mimics the vadmal they were made from, because nobody has rediscovered how to spin it yet even when they can find the right sort of sheep to start with. IMO this doesn't stop people from being able to make good reproductions of those garments for re-enactment purposes, particularly considering that those garments will most likely be worn under climactic conditions vastly different from the middle ages.

--
Al.
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Gordon Clark




Location: Purcellville, VA
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 4:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agree that there are many definitions of historical accuracy. To me one that makes sense is :

An item is historically accurate if, using what we know about period methods and materials, a period individual familiar with such period items would find nothing very unusual about the item.

That is not a very good definition, since it is not precise, but it gives the intent of what I mean by historical accuracy: A modern produced virtual equivalent. You can go on to specify as mcuh as you like - would the historical person use the item or just view it. If viewing, would they touch it or stand at a distance, if a distance, how far...

I could also make this more brief, and possibly easier to satisfy: I want something that looks and feels right.
Becasue what is the point really? I dress up in this stuff to have fun - to feel like I am somewhere else; that I am someone else. If an item distracts me from that feeling because it is not accurate enough - if it nags at me because I know I have cut corners, then I need something closer to the period item. If not, then it is good enough for me.

Gordon
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Rod Parsons




Location: UK
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
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Posts: 154

PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 4:43 am    Post subject: Re:         Reply with quote

I think it unwise to predicate a misconceived generalisation about the quality of weaving upon comparison with a T shirt fabric.
In the first place it is not difficult to find examples of hand weaving that are far and away superior to common modern machine weave. In the second place the more open weave of many examples of mediaeval cloth is functional and such woollens are far more efficient than cotton as insulation in a cold damp climate.
Fullered English wool such as might be used in a doublet is very close and thick and provides excellent protection from the elements even when it takes on a lot of moisture.
I have stood in sleet, rain and snow for three days working in linen shirt, pourpoint, arrning jack and woollen hose, taking on enough moisture that we drove away with the windows open and the heating off so as to keep the windscreen clear of condensation, but the inside lining of my jack never even got damp and though my legs were damp they were not cold.
The greatest objection to much of the cheaper ( and some of the more expensive) costume is that not only are the wrong fabrics used, but the garments thenselves are often incorrectly and flimsily constructed.
Such a garment would offer little protection from inclement weather.
Without correct construction jacks and doublets in particular just do not display a proper fit even if the measure is correct.
Rod.
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B. Fulton





Joined: 28 Dec 2004

Posts: 180

PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 4:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can "third" Matuls.... having seen two of his pieces and being in the middle of ordering one myself.
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