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Geoff Wood
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 Posted: Sat 01 Jul, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | Eftis again.
I have attempted to put these few small thoughts together keeping myArmoury's reputation and liabiltiy issues in mind. If I have overstepped any bounds I have every confidence the moderators will act accordingly. Overstepping bounds was not my intent. |
Do 'experts' in museums and such have 'liability issues' in the same way that other people passing comments might (or might not)? If so, they too may be less than willing to comment (or do they carry insurance to cover such eventualities). In this modern litigious age, it may be difficult to get a definite answer. Objectively, you could get a date on the wood in the hilt, but it wouldn't tell you much more about the iron work, as it could have been added later.
geoff
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Ben Sweet
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| Posted: Sat 01 Jul, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: |
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I would like to see some owner pics with the swords side by side...I don't have a clue about antiques...what bothers me is in the linked photos both swords come from a different time periods and different locations yet the ageing looks the same in coloration and texture of both blades and the gilt looks the same on both except for the guard on the 950ad, with those ad photos I am probably wrong... Who did the appraisals and is there documentation for those appraisals?
Request for side by side photos please...Thanks!
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 01 Jul, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: Antique swords |
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Rick
Please check these valuable clues and let us know what the answers are.
Weight of each item?
Approximate balance point (where item would balance when rested on your finger) does not have to be exact but generally listed as inches from the front of the guard?
Pommel details are the pommels close fitting to the tang or is the whole through which the tang enters the pommel larger than the tang?
Is the Viking sword pommel made of pieces or one solid piece of metal?
I would second Russ, Peters and everyone else's comments on education and documentation.
In my experience curators will give you there opinion on authenticity but most will decline and prefer to avoid value estimates, that is what you hire an appraiser to give you.
Best
Craig
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Don Stanko
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| Posted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: |
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When I authenticate a sword I generally check a couple of things. First I determine what its made of. I like to use a magnet. I go over the entire surface to see if there are spots the magnet isn't attracted to. This will show if there has been any restoration to the metal. I've found putty, filler and lead neatly painted to cover imperfections. One time I found that the entire sword was made out of a bronze cast and aged with liver of sulfur to give it a black appearance. After the magnet, I check the patina. Is it even? If not, consider why there would be wear on that area. I once found that the sword was quite real but a replacement pommel was attached to the blade and artificially aged. The next step is to use a high powered magnifying glass to inspect any armourers marks or inlays. Inlays added to an authentic piece is not unheard of. You can generally tell if it was added later by inspecting the inlays closely. Often times when a modern inlay is added the metal seeps into pitted areas, making a very fuzzy end product (Re: Harold Peterson). Other times you are able to see that modern tools were used to cut the grooves or that the handy work had been artificially aged. If many questions arise during my analysis I will take it to be x-rayed with an industrial x-ray. This step is not always needed but it does offer clues to how the piece was made and if there are any well hidden modern welds. The cost is minimal (about $85 per x-ray). My final step is to pay close attention to the shape and style of the sword and hit the books. I have many reference books I use to see if I can find an exact match to the piece I have before me. I also look to see if the guard matches the pommel in age and origin. If the blade does not match the guard and pommel, that does not necessarily doom the piece - it may have just been updated during its working life. But if the pommel does not match the guard in age, this could indicate a composite piece.
This does not cover everything but I hope it helps.
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Don Stanko wrote: | When I authenticate a sword I generally check a couple of things. First I determine what its made of. I like to use a magnet. I go over the entire surface to see if there are spots the magnet isn't attracted to. This will show if there has been any restoration to the metal. I've found putty, filler and lead neatly painted to cover imperfections. One time I found that the entire sword was made out of a bronze cast and aged with liver of sulfur to give it a black appearance. After the magnet, I check the patina. Is it even? If not, consider why there would be wear on that area. I once found that the sword was quite real but a replacement pommel was attached to the blade and artificially aged. The next step is to use a high powered magnifying glass to inspect any armourers marks or inlays. Inlays added to an authentic piece is not unheard of. You can generally tell if it was added later by inspecting the inlays closely. Often times when a modern inlay is added the metal seeps into pitted areas, making a very fuzzy end product (Re: Harold Peterson). Other times you are able to see that modern tools were used to cut the grooves or that the handy work had been artificially aged. If many questions arise during my analysis I will take it to be x-rayed with an industrial x-ray. This step is not always needed but it does offer clues to how the piece was made and if there are any well hidden modern welds. The cost is minimal (about $85 per x-ray). My final step is to pay close attention to the shape and style of the sword and hit the books. I have many reference books I use to see if I can find an exact match to the piece I have before me. I also look to see if the guard matches the pommel in age and origin. If the blade does not match the guard and pommel, that does not necessarily doom the piece - it may have just been updated during its working life. But if the pommel does not match the guard in age, this could indicate a composite piece.
This does not cover everything but I hope it helps. |
An informative post thanks Don!
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom
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| Posted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Sweet wrote: | I would like to see some owner pics with the swords side by side...I don't have a clue about antiques...what bothers me is in the linked photos both swords come from a different time periods and different locations yet the ageing looks the same in coloration and texture of both blades and the gilt looks the same on both except for the guard on the 950ad, with those ad photos I am probably wrong... Who did the appraisals and is there documentation for those appraisals?
Request for side by side photos please...Thanks! |
Yep Ben!
now when you say it, same level of rust. i have thinking about that to, here are some picture on that "wave-blade" from some time back 
 Attachment: 121.76 KB
Attachment: 78.54 KB
Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik
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Rod Parsons
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| Posted: Mon 03 Jul, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: A Question |
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Is the edge usually so well defined with that degree of pitting?
Rod.
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Richard V Connell
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| Posted: Tue 04 Jul, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the advice that you have provided.
I have made some basic mistakes. I have got into a hobby before reseaching it fully. The books and the Love of history and swords are not enough.
I need to know if I have authentic items. The funds are not as important as knowing that I have the honor of looking upon actual items that have been handed down from generation to generation of great warriors. I need to know.
It is the principle not the money. A lesson hard learned.
I would invite anyone willing to help a new collector. I need to know if the items I have purchased are real or a lie.
I live within 50 mins of Pittsburg Pa... Happy forth....
Tks all
Rick
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 04 Jul, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard V Connell wrote: | Thanks for all the advice that you have provided.
I have made some basic mistakes. I have got into a hobby before reseaching it fully. The books and the Love of history and swords are not enough.
I need to know if I have authentic items. The funds are not as important as knowing that I have the honor of looking upon actual items that have been handed down from generation to generation of great warriors. I need to know.
It is the principle not the money. A lesson hard learned.
I would invite anyone willing to help a new collector. I need to know if the items I have purchased are real or a lie.
I live within 50 mins of Pittsburg Pa... Happy forth....
Tks all
Rick |
Rick,
If I may say so you've got exactly the right attitude to have about this sort of thing. You are willing to admit that you don't know and that's the first step to finding out the truth. You are willing to learn. I've seen many people over the years (mostly in the knife collecting arena) become all bluster and bravado when doubts are cast on the authenticity of their newly acquired pieces. Instead of listening they become defensive... and never know the truth. I have doubts about your pieces but wish you the best of luck in your research.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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This is a standard topic