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Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jun, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
The sword in the center of the first photo posted by Russ is the one I was told was based on the sword of Oliver Cromwell....
That piece does bear some resemblance (though not perfect) to the so-called Cromwell sword in the Armouries of the Tower of London.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Aaron Pynenberg




Location: Appleton, WI
Joined: 22 Jun 2006

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 8:10 am    Post subject: A-trim and John Clements discussion?         Reply with quote

Hello Everyone-new to this forum!

I was one of the folks at the blade show with John Clements, and I thought I would add a little more to A-Trims post about the encounter between us.

First though, here's a brief run-down on who I am for a sense of perspective. I am a 31 year old Police Sgt. from the City of Appleton in Appleton WI, I have been a SWAT Operator for 8 years and I am currently assinged as a gang and drug investigator. I am also ex-Military, as I was a combat medic in the National Guard for 6 years.

I discovered Western martial Arts about 3 years ago now, and have been an ARMA member for 3 years as well. ARMA's study approach touched a common thread with me in terms of John's philosophy in teaching this art., and what I know about combat training through Law enforcement and the Military. This is why I have been learning from him, exclusively.

I stay out of these WMA politics as much as possible, but A-trim your account makes the situation sound very different from how I perceived it and I wanted to give you my insight to perhaps help you better understand.

John and about three other ARMA students were walking to Albion's booth to speak with them. We saw (by Chance) the RSW training weapons on the side table and were talking to the rep there about them. I was standing next to the rep, holding one of the trainers, when John who was standing on the end, said to you "are you Angus Trim", there was a pause and no reply from you and John said again "are you Angus Trim as in The Angus Trim" again a pause, then you said "NO" in a very blunt and strange manner. It was not a drawn out noooo like you describe, it was blunt and bazaar!

I was not even paying attention really to what was going on until you said that, at which time all of us kind of, turned and looked at you. You were wearing a name tag that said "Angus Trim" so I for one was kind of confused, We all were looking at you for a few seconds, when John, who was still looking at you, (as we all were) -kind of laughed and at that point you looked down and kind of fuddled with something on the table. John stayed and was talking to the rep for several minutes then, John at that point very casually walked away. The rest of us remained and looked at those trainers for several minutes. We certainly did not " flee towards Albion's booth" that statement is totally false and makes the situation sound much different from what happened. Before "fleeing" John said very loudly to me "I guess he's a jerk in person too" which you also did not reply to.

John and I had just given a full presentation on historical fighting arts, which was very well- recieved. We were also tired as the presentation was verbal as well as physical. I think though, that had you made the slightest effort to at least acknowlegde your own name, we would have talked to you.

I think your reaction was just about the weirdest thing I have seen in a social setting in some time, I understand you may have been tired, but your table, was totally devoid of any customers or people and you were simply standing there by yourself, so that would have been a perfect time to talk things over and not be heard by any other folks.

It's too bad that this is my first post here, but I read your comments on the situation and my Law Enforcement side took over. I also do not think it was some typo or misunderstanding of the words you used, your reply seems to be crafted very carefully given the fact that I was there to witness it. Please do not misrepresent encounters with ARMA folks again, it is not a very honest way to represent yourself. Especially given your past history with your critics, be sure that next year we will be there to be as close to you as possible, we didn't really give this a second thought until we learned of your post-Thanks and good luck to you. Aaron Pyneberg


Last edited by Aaron Pynenberg on Thu 22 Jun, 2006 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: A-trim and John Clements discussion?         Reply with quote

Aaron Pynenberg wrote:

It's too bad that this is my first post here, but I read your comments on the situation and my Law Enforcement side took over. I also do not think it was some typo or misunderstanding of the words you used, your reply seems to be crafted very carefully given the fact that I was there to witness it. Please do not misrepresent encounters with ARMA folks again, it is not a very honest way to represent yourself. Thanks and good luck to you. Aaron Pyneberg


It is indeed too bad, because it is not a good way to start your posting life here. Relating your side of the story is fine and welcome, but (not so) veiled accusations and a scolding tone make a poor first impression here and aren't welcome. State what you have to state and let people draw their own conclusions.

You, however, are welcome, and I encourage you to keep reading and to keep posting, but please do so in the manner we try hard to maintain around here.

Happy

ChadA

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Aaron Pynenberg




Location: Appleton, WI
Joined: 22 Jun 2006

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject: thanks         Reply with quote

Hello chad, Thanks for the advice, but I must disagree that I made any veiled accusations. I think what I said was pretty clear.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron, i'm not trying to moderate in any form just putting forth a question, is it possible that when Gus posted his take on it that it was just that his take alone? It been my observation that when two people witness the same thing they will focus in on different aspects of it based on personality-inclination I don't know what but they do pick up on different things. Gus thought it was odd you thought it was odd so everybody thought it was odd but in totally different ways , my point made. I personally would much rather here your thoughts on the show over all, i've never been and so other peoples relates are cool to read.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: thanks         Reply with quote

Aaron Pynenberg wrote:
Hello chad, Thanks for the advice, but I must disagree that I made any veiled accusations. I think what I said was pretty clear.


Your agreement or disagreement is not relevant here. What I gave is not advice: it's instruction from a Moderator of a moderated forum and isn't open to interpretation. If you'd like to discuss this further, please feel free to send me or our other Moderator Nathan Robinson a private message.

Happy

ChadA

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Angus Trim




Location: Seattle area
Joined: 26 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: A-trim and John Clements discussion?         Reply with quote

Aaron Pynenberg wrote:
Hello Everyone-new to this forum!

I was one of the folks at the blade show with John Clements, Aaron Pyneberg


Hi Aaron, and good morning.........

Reading your post, I am struck by the agreements, and the minor disagreements in how things went........

Not that any of it is that serious.

Thanks for confirming for me that, that was John. I had no idea........

I wasn't at the table when you gents got there. I was up in the restroom, and noticed several folk around Patrick Jones, on the end table. I went around, and into the vendor area, and happened to overhear Patrick mention a piece that someone had casually handled, and was describing it as "German Bastard Sword". The gentleman that was addressing Patrick, said something about it being too heavy....... At this point I noticed the ARMA insignia on the red tee shirts. Trying to be helpful, I thought I'd mention the A&A German Bastard Sword that was in Hong Kong, that Lance probably used for a model for the trainer. However, my first attempt came out "ARMA Bastard Sword", I did correct it to "Arms and Armor German Bastard Sword", but at that point it appeared to me, that all I'd accomplished was create a bit of discomfort. Mindful of the history, I went ahead and backed off to the center of my table area........

It appeared that the gent that was addressing Patrick was bullying him, everything was "too heavy".... and Patrick was having a tough time responding.... and I found this a bit irritating, but determined that Patrick's a big boy, and if he's going to retail RSW products, or any other, he's going to need to be able to deal with occassionally being dogged. It goes with the territory.......

I'm sure in retrospect, that the gentleman wasn't really bullying Patrick, just offering positive critique........

At about this time, the gentleman that you helped identify as John Clements seemed to notice that my name tag said "Angus Trim".............and what I remember him saying was "Angus Trim? THE ANGUS TRIM?" with a higher pitch and more emphasis on the second time around. Purely from my perspective, maybe a bit smarta$$. Before responding I noted that everyone else' eyes were still on Patrick..... I responded equally smarta$$, "Not so Much".... mainly referring to the "THE ANGUS TRIM"........

After which John abrubtly left..........The conversation around the RSW stuff ended, but the three gents there stuck around a few seconds more. In retrospect {I didn't think about it at the time}, I'd guess that the discomfort level was pretty high.

Like you, I feel its too bad that that we didn't get the chance for a couple of minutes of talk. But maybe there was just a bit too much "history" of the wrong kind to make that easy for anyone. It looks like both parties interpreted things maybe just a bit different than the other parties....

Just as a bit of something to think about, the "history" I had with Albion was much nastier at its height, than my history with John. Yet, Harlan, Mike Sigman and I had a couple of good {but short} visits..........

So, I feel reasonably sure, that John, you {and the rest of the folks at the table}, and I could react in a reasonably adult fashion in a short amiable discussion......... I expect to be at Atlanta next year, please feel free to come by. I promise that I won't try and sell you anything, or change your mind about anything.

I think you'd find I'm not such the ogre that I've appeared online in the past........

Angus Trim

swords are fun
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Jason Elrod




Location: Winchester, VA
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: A-trim and John Clements discussion?         Reply with quote

Angus Trim wrote:
......... I expect to be at Atlanta next year, please feel free to come by.


I'm glad things went well enough that you'll be in Atlanta next year. I'll definately take some time off of work next year so that everything won't be so rushed. Maybe next year you can bring some collaboration pieces (ASA, CF, LJ, Scott Wilson etc).
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Patrick J.





Joined: 24 Jan 2005

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gus is a nice guy. He treated me well and was very fair.

As for the RSWs. I only know that the ones made to match my blades are balanced and weighted correctly. As are the European singled handed, longswords (33 & 36 inch), since I have used blades like them.

I trust that Lance got the others right too. I've got to ask him which swords they are based on so I can give a better reply.
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: A-trim and John Clements discussion?         Reply with quote

Angus Trim wrote:
I'm sure in retrospect, that the gentleman wasn't really bullying Patrick, just offering positive critique........

That would be my guess too considering that Lance Chan, the owner of Realistic Sparring Weapons, is a founding member of ARMA Hong Kong.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Folks,
Let's have more discussion about the show itself and less (read: none) about who looked at who funny, or who said what strange thing to whom and why. I've been to 2 Blade Shows and I'm positive there are better, more on-topic things to discuss. Happy

Happy

ChadA

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Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill and Russ, thanks for posting those great pics!

I couldn't make it there unfortunately (Chad, did you go?). Was there anyone there selling or displaying antique originals?

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a lot I'd like to say here about this whole Angus Trim / ARMA interaction, but frankly, none of it fits on this forum so I'll show moderation and refrain.

This isn't the right place for that stuff, just as it's not the right place to have posted some of the things already put here. Simply put: take it elsewhere. I don't want it here. Gus, you should not have brought it up with your original post.

Both parties have their own forums. Why do it it here in my house? It's completely unwelcome here as is any further discussions on the matter.

To be clear: no more about this stuff. No apologies. No final words. Nothing. If you have any questions or comments that you absolutely must get out of your system, send them to me personally via our private message system.

Move on.

Thank you.

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Stephen S. Han




Location: Westminster, CA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 211

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My sincere thanks to those who attended the show and shared their impressions and photos.

This question is directed at Russ Ellis, but I guess anyone who was there can answer. The hunting hanger you mentioned, is it the same one that Kevin has on his website under "available?" If yes, I envy you, as the photo from the website indicates a beauty.

http://cashenblades.com/available.html
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen S. Han wrote:
My sincere thanks to those who attended the show and shared their impressions and photos.

This question is directed at Russ Ellis, but I guess anyone who was there can answer. The hunting hanger you mentioned, is it the same one that Kevin has on his website under "available?" If yes, I envy you, as the photo from the website indicates a beauty.

http://cashenblades.com/available.html


Thanks for pointing that out, Stephen! That is quite nice.


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Stephen S. Han




Location: Westminster, CA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 211

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I particularly like the acorn treatment (and the story Kevin tells of it) and the pattern welded clamshell guard which brings the whole hanger together nicely.
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Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Cashen hunting sword is pretty spectacular. Wow.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With very few intentional exceptions, all his swords are visually spectacular.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Robert Zamoida




Location: Davis Monthan AFB, AZ
Joined: 06 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did anyone get any pics of the Albion table? I'd love to see what they brought with them; I remember it was last year? or the year before when they had brought an all bronze version of the Vinland, with a brown grip, that was lovely to look at. Any special pieces like that, or any other for that matter?
Rob Zamoida
"When your life is on the line, you want to make use of all your tools. No warrior should be willing to die with his swords at his sides, without having made use of his tools."
-Miyamoto Mushashi, Gorin no Sho
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Edward Hitchens wrote:
Bill and Russ, thanks for posting those great pics!

I couldn't make it there unfortunately (Chad, did you go?). Was there anyone there selling or displaying antique originals?


No, I didn't make it down this year. After a busy Spring, I was really interested in that weekend off. Happy Plus, money and time are tight. Maybe next year.

Happy

ChadA

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