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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jun, 2006 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: wallace         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

I'd be curious to see how much moving the raised section of the pommel more toward the top (like the original) would affect the overall balance. There are many pommels whose main discs aren't the same thickness at the top as at the bottom or the middle or whose bosses were not centered. I'm sure that wasn't done randomly.

Also, how close is the tang shape and thickness to the original? That could have an effect on balance as well.


Those are good points, it may be that moving some of that mass away from the cross with the slightly different pommel shape would have been enough to remove some material, Mark could probably comment on that better then I then he had to play with the distributions to get the point of balance right. Also I can't comment on the actual dimensions of the tang since I've never seen it other then pictures, but I did send those dimensions to Mark so he may have taken them into account as well when he was building the sword, again he could comment better then I.

Tang width (at cross): 24 mm (0.94”), at pommel 17 mm (0.67”)
Thickness of tang (at cross, edge): 7 mm (0.28), at pommel 6 mm (0.24”)

I should note that Mark's fine tuning with Pommel and blade made for a much more balanced and easier to use sword then the Mark I, however the tuning was achieved he certainly got it right. All in all a highly satisfactory rendition of the sword in question and I suspect that the next one will be even better, if someone elects to go that route.

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Mark G.
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jun, 2006 12:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The measurements Russ sent are what I based the new sword on., although I did not taper the thickness of the tang down towards the pommel. I needed all of the extra weight I could get in the hilt end of the sword.

I honestly can't remember if the newer pommel's raised disc is truly centered between the top and bottom of the pommel. Unless viewed from a straight on angle, the disc can actually appear to be shifted more towards one way than the other. I have no doubt that the closer the disc is to the top of the pommel, it would aid in pulling the balance towards the hilt. I can't say offhand to what degree the balance is effected in relation to how far the disc moves, but I'm always up for experimenting and testing.

By the way, I'm glad that you seem happy with the sword, Russ. Don't be afraid to let me know if there's any tweaking you would like done on this one.

Mark

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jun, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
When I was at the Wallace collection, I thought I remembered the faces of the original's pommel being hollowed like a Type J.

That's what I remember, too Happy

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jun, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a pic from Bjorn's website:



He's got a bunch of stats on the sword, which he handled a few years back: http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/vm_1300_eng.htm

According to Bjorn and the Wallace Collection catalogues, the original weighs 2 lbs 9 oz and its blade is .275" thick at the base.

The Wallace Collection catalogue notes that the pommel is nearly as thick as it is tall. Cool stuff. It also says it has "sides with flattened cones." Maybe it isn't that beveled. Who knows?

Happy

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jun, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad, one thing I know I remember for sure was just how attractive that sword was to me. It was super impressive and I remember both of us looking at it for quite some time. I found myself going back to it many times.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jun, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Here's a pic from Bjorn's website:

He's got a bunch of stats on the sword, which he handled a few years back: http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/vm_1300_eng.htm

According to Bjorn and the Wallace Collection catalogues, the original weighs 2 lbs 9 oz and its blade is .275" thick at the base.

The Wallace Collection catalogue notes that the pommel is nearly as thick as it is tall. Cool stuff. It also says it has "sides with flattened cones." Maybe it isn't that beveled. Who knows?


Yep, that's where I got the stats that I sent to Mark. Good old Bjorn, even when he's not around much (or at all) anymore he's still helping me out. Happy

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Matthew Grzybowski
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jun, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks to for all for the kind words. This was a great project to work on. It was a pleasure working with Russ on this piece and look forward to working with him again in the future projects.

Best,

Matt

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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 9:39 pm    Post subject: A459 Pommel         Reply with quote

Hey Guys

First of Russ great sword, it looks great.

Chad dropped me a note to ask on the pommel shape of the original and while I was digging to find the info I came across the stuff I had been looking for on this sword that Russ had asked me about eons ago. Sorry it took so long to find Russ.

This piece is truly an exceptional sword. The pommel is a great illustration of the period style of making a wheel pommel as far as symmetry goes. It was far less a factor to them then for us today. This is almost certainly a well made and upper bracket weapon of the period and the pommel exhibits all the uniqueness one could want in contrast to our modern symmetrical tastes. The raised centers are not centered top to bottom or left to right and definitely not from front to back.

The bevels are basically flat though. This is some times difficult to discern from a front on view. Below is a sketch of the pommel from the side. The dimensions are not to scale overall but its proportions are relatively right on maybe a mm or two variance. As you can see it is a "handmade" piece if ever there was one.

Best to all my friends.

Craig



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James A. Vargscarr




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is the most bizarre pommel I have ever seen. Any ideas as to whether (or how) the shape would effect handling? I'm wondering if there might even have been an 'inside' and 'outside' to the sword when gripped, though the idea seems like a stretch.

On the other hand, is the design nothing more than a simple matter of aesthetic preference that seems utterly foreign to the sensibilities of the present day? It's a little difficult to tell from the sketch, but if the faces lie along a single diagonal axis I feel slightly better able to relate to the design in a yin-yang type of way.
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James A. Vargscarr wrote:
That is the most bizarre pommel I have ever seen. Any ideas as to whether (or how) the shape would effect handling? I'm wondering if there might even have been an 'inside' and 'outside' to the sword when gripped, though the idea seems like a stretch.

On the other hand, is the design nothing more than a simple matter of aesthetic preference that seems utterly foreign to the sensibilities of the present day? It's a little difficult to tell from the sketch, but if the faces lie along a single diagonal axis I feel slightly better able to relate to the design in a yin-yang type of way.


Hello James

This is an excellent example of an average pommel of the day. It is a good day when the student of the sword begins to see these original pieces in more than one dimension and sees the affect of hammer, hand and eye done in period and how we average out and symmetricize ( I think I just made a new word) that original as a product to the modern taste. As I pointed out above this sword is probably a very nice sword from the period. Someone did not just get this from Larry's Discount Sword Clearing House, it was an expensive item. Obviously the symmetry of the pommel was not a draw back. The shape may well have felt more comfortable with one edge leading over the other to the user but this is the way with most swords even today. I doubt the asymmetry was by design. The consistent unsymmetrical shapes seen in pommels of this period indicate that one of the real steps we take today away from replicating swords well is the odd shapes and miss alignment that would make a sword almost unsaleable in the modern market.

Another great example is the cross on this sword it is distinctly not symmetrical in shape and one end is visibly larger than the other. This is seen on many period swords. In fact I would venture that in most cross guards there is a measurable difference in length from a center point, I have seen many that approach half an inch or more.

These esthetics run through out the swords construction. Rarely do you see even blade symmetry. Center lines and fullers will waiver or be off set by a visible degree. Fullers of different lengths on each face of the blade. Some of this will be due to wear or sharpening but when the larger group of known blades are looked at the exceptionally true and symmetrical ones really do stand out. In fact that was a way early collectors of the last century used to red flag possible fakes they were to true.

Best
Craig
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: A459 Pommel         Reply with quote

Craig Johnson wrote:

Chad dropped me a note to ask on the pommel shape of the original and while I was digging to find the info I came across the stuff I had been looking for on this sword that Russ had asked me about eons ago. Sorry it took so long to find Russ.

This piece is truly an exceptional sword. The pommel is a great illustration of the period style of making a wheel pommel as far as symmetry goes. It was far less a factor to them then for us today. This is almost certainly a well made and upper bracket weapon of the period and the pommel exhibits all the uniqueness one could want in contrast to our modern symmetrical tastes. The raised centers are not centered top to bottom or left to right and definitely not from front to back.



Craig,
Thanks for the fantastic info. It's always great to see side shots. Have you noticed a lot of swords from the cutting sword era with pommels similarly thickened at the base? Was this done on purpose or was it an artifact of the heating and tang-hole punching? It seems like the thicker area toward the base would help push the balance out a bit in the blade, aiding the cut. Great stuff.

Happy

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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Jun, 2006 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: A459 Pommel         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:


Craig,
Thanks for the fantastic info. It's always great to see side shots. Have you noticed a lot of swords from the cutting sword era with pommels similarly thickened at the base? Was this done on purpose or was it an artifact of the heating and tang-hole punching? It seems like the thicker area toward the base would help push the balance out a bit in the blade, aiding the cut. Great stuff.


Hey Chad

The tapered thickness is definitely a common element seen in pommels of this and later periods. The reason I would guess is a bit of both the esthetic and the process of swagging the tang pass through channel, it may also provide a larger area for the grip to seat against. Which came first I do not think would be discernable. As far as the affect on the balance point I would guess it would move it a very small distance, the old short arm of the lever thing. The amount of mass that is shifted would not be all that great and the distance is so minimal that I would guess few would be able to feel the difference.

Best
Craig
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: A459 Pommel         Reply with quote

Craig Johnson wrote:
Hey Guys

First of Russ great sword, it looks great.

Chad dropped me a note to ask on the pommel shape of the original and while I was digging to find the info I came across the stuff I had been looking for on this sword that Russ had asked me about eons ago. Sorry it took so long to find Russ.

This piece is truly an exceptional sword. The pommel is a great illustration of the period style of making a wheel pommel as far as symmetry goes. It was far less a factor to them then for us today. This is almost certainly a well made and upper bracket weapon of the period and the pommel exhibits all the uniqueness one could want in contrast to our modern symmetrical tastes. The raised centers are not centered top to bottom or left to right and definitely not from front to back.

The bevels are basically flat though. This is some times difficult to discern from a front on view. Below is a sketch of the pommel from the side. The dimensions are not to scale overall but its proportions are relatively right on maybe a mm or two variance. As you can see it is a "handmade" piece if ever there was one.

Best to all my friends.

Craig


Thanks so much for chiming in here Craig. It's nice to have some other first hand information on the original sword. Again I'm tickled that we've discovered that form indeed follows function. It would seem however that I need to tell Mark to get sloppy the next time I have him make me a reproduction of an original. Happy I was wondering do you have any insight as to how pommels were actually made? If I recall correctly even in Records of the Medieval Sword Oakeshott talks about how many crosses especially the more complex types were typically assymetrical, something that was caused by the difficulty of forging everything pefectly... which means I suppose that some of our modern smiths that forge their hilt furniture probably should get a rousing "atta boy." Happy

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