[Brian Hook]

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_mrl_rondel.html

Anyone know what piece this rondel is based on?
Has anyone seen this dagger hands on? I normally avoid MRL like the plague but at 85 dollars its very tempting kit filler till I can afford a custom rondel.

[Chad Arnow]

[Mark Mattimore]

Brian

In researching the article I looked at a lot of rondels but couldn't find one that was a direct match for this one. It is more of a composite of several different daggers that represents a type and not a direct copy of a single historical example. Most of MRL's pieces are designed like this.

It is a tempting buy given the price. That's exactly why I got it myself. For the money it is well worth it.

[Brian Hook]

Thanks Chad & Mike
I figured that’s why it wasn't in the review. I know their old rondel was based on this piece from the Wallace collection my friend lucky picked up 2 on closeout (and won't sell me either ) the reason I asked was because it's for living history, and my group likes documentation for items used. I will most likey just end up getting the custom or one of Tod's from
http://www.todsstuff.co.uk Dagger kits.

[Joe Fults]

Not sure how it will be accepted for Living History.

I have one and I think it has a somewhat modern look to it.

[Mark Mattimore]

I have to agree with Joe on this one. It's a great piece and would work for casual reenactment but doesn't really rise to the level needed for living history. I think all of MRL's stuff fits into this category. As for the modern look, perhaps not in the design itself but definitely in the finely machined rondels, lacquered handel and shiny leather scabbard.

[Brian Hook]

It would have been a project piece anyways, I would have sanded the handle down and covered it with veg tanned leather and do the same with the scabbard as I was planning on doing with one of their Falchions, moneys tight so one has to be a bit creative.

[Dan Howard]

I thought the whole point of the rondel was to enable the second hand to exert additional force when punching through mail. The rondel in the first image seems too small to perform this function. The knob/nut sticking out the back would also make this action difficult since it would bite into the palm. Compare the Wallace example with the MRL one.

[Nathan Robinson]

Effectiveness aside, there are many historical examples of rondel daggers with small rondels or knobs/nuts at the end.

Examples:



From the Royal Armouries, Leeds (X-599)
This dagger is in excellent condition despite being found in the River Thames. The button-shaped upper rondel and rounded lower rondel are each made of single pieces of iron. Similar guards have been found on other examples from the Thames and are now in the Museum of London. The spiraled grip is perfectly preserved and is reinforced with bands of iron and twisted brass wire. The 19 1/2 inch long blade is double-edged and of flattened diamond cross-section.



From the Royal Armouries, Leeds (X-2)
Another early 15th century English dagger, this has a scale grip and hollow rivets. It has a single-edged blade and composite lower rondel at the base of the blade. The overall length is 19 3/4 inches.

[Bruce Wilson]

Can't speak to the accuracy of the rondel itself (but thanks for raising this piece as I was seriously considering getting one myself) however, I have found that MRL/Windlass leather components look much better if stripped of their gloss finish.

I did this to the one sword of theirs that I own and using simple methyl alcohol and a big rag! The scabbard acquired a not too bad antiqued leather look as almost ALL of the polish came off and the leather underneath was essentially un-dyed. The leather of the grip was obviously dyed black but still ended up with a nice matt finish - which was ultimately much more effective to hold. If I recall correctly, then I re-finished both parts by rubbing in a light coat of the sort of waxed leather treatment that's generally available from shoe shops.

I still doubt it would pass muster for living history but it certainly looks a lot better than the over-glossed look it had when I got it. It's also not a bad basis for further work; I went on to re-strip the surface on the scabbard and dyed it dark blue which looks OK but I'm rather wishing I'd gone with deep burgundy. Oh well, never mind - I can always do the rondel to match. Apologies for the rather poor quality of the pics.

For those of you who have handled the MRL rondel, would this piece be relatively easy to customise with new guards?
I like its price (even better from Reliks with the myArmoury discount!) but I was thinking of having some very plain discs made for either end of the grip.

[Brian Hook]

I think all MRL weapons are more like weapon kits rather then completed pieces in my mind. Bruce if you pulled the leather off and replaced it with Veg tanned leather it would pass for living history( Only for a show piece though, MRL's aren't don't meet safety requirements for most living history groups live combat), after viewing the rondel is question in real life this weekend, The blade's profile looks way to modern to really be worth the effort in converting it, It's a shame they discontinued they other rondel, while it had signs of cutting corners it can easily be altered to look appropriate, MRL seems to like to discontinue there more accurate products like these pole arms they use to carry.

[Chuck Russell]

they always do discontinue the best of the historically accurate close things and replace with utter pooh

[Mark Mattimore]

This issue of MRL’s historical accuracy (or lack there of) is something that I’ve been thinking about as of late. As I stated in my previous post, MRL’s pieces are typically composites of many items of a type and not a direct copy of a single historic example. However, I’ve noticed in recent catalogs more and more references to books and museums as the inspiration for particular swords and weapons. In their most recent catalog (#90) I counted no fewer than 17 direct historic references. Here’s a quick rundown of the ones I’ve found:

Page 3 – Late Period War Hammer
“The original is in the Nurenbeg Museum”

Page 9 – Silver-Hilted Dagger
“This dagger can be seen in the book, “European Daggers” by Bashford Dean”

Page 10 – Italian Cut-And-Thrust Sword
“Original in the Wallace Collection”

Page 11 – Sword of Novara
“Picture can be seen in “Armi Bianche Italiane””

Page 13 – German Bastard Sword
“This sword is a replica of number A477 from the famed Wallace Collection.”

Page 13 – Landsknecht Dagger
“In “European Daggers” by Bashford Dean…”

Page 13 - German Footsoldier’s War Axe
“This two hand axe is taken from the book, “Armeria Della Rocca””

Page 32 – Venetian Sword
“Original is pictured in “Armi Bianche Italiane””

Page 34 – Ulfberht Sword
“Copied from one shown in Ian Pierce’s book “Swords of the Viking Age””

Page 35 – Coustille
“A drawing can be seen in Age of Chivalry, Liliane & Fred Funcken”

Page 36 – River Thames Mace
“Photo of the original can be seen in Arms and Armor by Vesey Norman, pg. 91”

Page 36 – Sword of Auray
“Original in Philadelphia Fine Art Museum”

Page 43 – Damascus Viking Sword
“Can be seen in “Records Of The Medieval Sword” on pg. 83 by Ewart Oakeshott”

Page 44 – Seax
“The remnants of this Seax can be seen in the British Museum”

Page 48 – The Roman Gladius
“Originals were excavated from the ruins of Pompeii. You can see examples in H. Russell Robinson’s book “What The Soldiers Wore On Hadrian’s Wall.””

Page 67 – German Backsword
“Can be seen in the book: L’America Reale Di torino”

Back Cover – Romano-British Spath
“Original was exhumed from a Pictish grave and can be seen in the Osprey book “Pictish Warrior.”

And in addition to these there are a few others in which casual references are made to original sources. So what do you all think of this? Do you think it constitutes a new trend, a new direction for MRL? Or is this a return to an older practice? And if anyone has these books I’d love to see some of the originals. Food for thought.

[Joe Fults]

I think they are just searching for a marketing message that drives sales.

[Bruce Wilson]

Yes, that would seem to be more like it - there's a market for "historically accurate" so they want some of that. Many customers, especially those relatively new to the scene, will only find out after the fact that actually they're not so accurate after all.

I freely admit that I'm not too fussed about going absolutely overboard for every last detail of historical accuracy at the moment (I can't be absolutist, I own a Towton for goodness sake! ) but a rondel would be an appropriate style of sidearm for that 1400s period so I would certainly like to find a nicer dagger with decent sized rondels, alhough I really can't afford anything too expensive - which is why I was toying with modifying the Windlass version.

To be honest, I really need some decent new wooden wasters first - so the rondel (or at least a metal one anyway!) may come second for a while. That said, I do like the look of the work at Tod's Stuff and, equally, these from the English Cutler look non too shabby for £85 sterling, complete with scabbard: (I'm very tempted...!)

Rondel daggers from The English Cutler:

[Joe Fults]

Are those from Todd's Stuff or English Cutler.

To my unstudied eye they look much better. At least in the photo.

[Bruce Wilson]

Those shown in my post above are rondels from the English Cutler. They do either single- or double-edged, with brown or black leather scabbard for £85.

I have to say, I really like the look of these daggers and I'm seriously considering contacting them. I'd like to go with double-edged but something tells me single-edged with a stout triangular profile is probably more appropriate for punching through armour and would therefore be the better weapon to carry...

They offer quite a nice range of other stuff too but it was the rondels that leapt out at me. Tod's Stuff has very nice looking rondels as well but they are a little more expensive. The plain steel version with the big rondel guards would do me very nicely!

These are the rondels from Tod's Stuff:

[Adam R]

My understanding is that the English Cutler is Tod of Tods Stuff - it is his 'budget' range - I say 'budget' - from the photos they still look fantastic and are hand made to Tod's high standards - bit of a must really! Thanks to folks on livinghistory.co.uk/forums for pointing out this fact to me.

[Bruce Wilson]

That would seem to be about right - I just wasn't sure, so I didn't mention it.

The "budget" ones look pretty darn good to me!

[Adam R]